More bad chronology from the Watch Tower Society

by Jeffro 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AnnOMaly

  Similarly, as with many of their basic dotrines, the JW view about the reference to Darius at Nehemiah 12:22 is not original , but is borrowed from earlier groups.

  There are later biblical scholars who argue for Darius II too. Their conclusions must be based on more than just wanting to squeeze the book of Nehemiah into a narrower time-frame for theological reasons. It seems that scholarship is divided on the matter due to conflicting or insufficient data. There are arguments for both identifications.

  W alk me through this. Where did you get the years for the high priests? I couldn't locate them in Josephus. With which other sources do the year figures correspond?
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  Jeffro

  AnnOMaly:

  Walk me through this. Where did you get the years for the high priests? I couldn't locate them in Josephus. With which other sources do the year figures correspond?

  I got the years from Wikipedia (ultimately from other Jewish sources). But the periods are confirmed by Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter 7:

  2. Now when John had departed this life, his son Jaddua succeeded in the high priesthood. He had a brother, whose name was Manasseh. :Now there was one Sanballat, who was sent by Darius, the last king [of Persia]*, into Samaria. He was a Cutheam by birth; of which stock were the Samaritans also. This man knew that the city Jerusalem was a famous city, and that their kings had given a great deal of trouble to the Assyrians, and the people of Celesyria; so that he willingly gave his daughter, whose name was Nicaso, in marriage to Manasseh, as thinking this alliance by marriage would be a pledge and security that the nation of the Jews should continue their good-will to him.

  * "[of Persia]" is an interpolation in the translation, not added by me.

  Chapter 8 immediately continues into dealings with Alexander the Great, including references to Darius as his contemporary. Josephus is therefore not discussing Darius II.

  Note also that Josephus (earlier in Chapter 7) refers to "another Artaxerxes" (Artaxerxes II [Mnemon]) as a contemporary of John (Johanan), after the Darius (II) contemporary with Judas (Joiada), but before the Darius (III) contemporary with Jaddua.
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  Jeffro

  AnnOMaly:

  Their conclusions must be based on more than just wanting to squeeze the book of Nehemiah into a narrower time-frame for theological reasons.

  Really? Have you considered just how much of western culture is framed around a magical God-man who might not even have existed as a human??
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  AnnOMaly

  So your only source for the years was Wikipedia? Did you track down the Jewish sources for Wikipedia's information?

  I'm sure you saw this comment in the article:

  The chronology given above, based on Josephus, however is not undisputed, with some alternatively placing Jaddua during the time of Darius II and some supposing one more Johanan and one more Jaddua in the following time, the latter Jaddua being contemporary of Alexander the Great.

  I know the Josephus reference you gave. I was puzzled by Wikipedia's comment that the chronology of priests was based on him and yet I could find no years. So again, where do the years come from?

  Bible scholars are aware of the passage in Josephus too, yet many still believe the Darius in Neh. 12:22 is Darius II. I also know you are aware how some of the historical details found in Josephus' work are either plain wrong or conflict with other sources, e.g. compare Ant. XI, 2.22f. with Ezra 4:11f.

  I'm not convinced you have all your ducks in a row yet. I'm going to scour Josephus more thoroughly, however.

  There are plenty of scholars who do not believe the Bible is God-inspired but still study it as historical and cultural literature. There are those who do believe the Bible is God-inspired and yet opt for Darius III. So again, a conclusion about which Darius it was has to have been based on better grounds than just wanting to squeeze the book of Nehemiah into a narrower time-frame to fit a religious ideology.
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  Jeffro

  I completely agree that source details are scarce. And I don't disagree that there may be other interpretations. But what I've provided is the 'best fit', and isn't contradicted by any particularly robust information, and is consistent with the Bible, Josephus, and Persian sources. I have no special vested interest in the material either way, and there are no 'magical' requirements or conclusions involved.

  The chronology given above, based on Josephus, however is not undisputed, with some alternatively placing Jaddua during the time of Darius II and some supposing one more Johanan and one more Jaddua in the following time, the latter Jaddua being contemporary of Alexander the Great.

  There just happened to be a second sequence of the same names to pad out the time between Darius II and Alexander? Even though Josephus fairly plainly gives a sequential account all the way through? In the absence of any corroborating evidence, that sounds more like special pleading than anything else.
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  AnnOMaly

  It appears that the source details just come down to one - Josephus - who, we know very well, is not always to be trusted. I'm not convinced it is the 'best fit' but I'm looking into it. You have checked the inconsistency I gave from the same Book XI, right? Cambyses and Artaxerxes I are miles apart chronologically, as are Darius III/Alexander and Darius II.

  Anyway, I'll be back when I have more data.

  Oh, btw, the 'corroborating evidence' that you think is absent can be found in one of the Elephantine Papyrii (mentioned at the top of this page).
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  Jeffro

  It appears that the source details just come down to one - Josephus - who, we know very well, is not always to be trusted.

  Just because Josephus is sometimes wrong, which indeed he is, it doesn't mean that he is necessarily wrong if he's the only source for a particular piece of information, especially where the overall information is consistent with other sources. What is the evidence for the alternative views in reference to Darius II??
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  AnnOMaly

  Added a bit to my previous post, btw.

  Let me check some stuff out, OK? I'll be back later.
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  Jeffro

  Let me check some stuff out, OK? I'll be back later.

  Thanks.

  Nearly bedtime here, so I'll check back in the morning.
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  Jeffro

  Oh, btw, the 'corroborating evidence' that you think is absent can be found in one of the Elephantine Papyrii

  What I've suggested doesn't conflict with the Elephantine Papyrii. Bagoses (Bagoas) was contemporary with both Darius II (per EP) and Artaxerxes II (per Josephus), and with Johanan (per Josephus and EP). EP makes reference to Johanan in the 17th year of Darius II (407 BCE). Because Josephus gives Johanan as high priest during the subsequent reign of Artaxerxes II (leaving no time for Jaddua to be priest during the reign of Darius II), there's no conflict with Jaddua being priest in the later reign of Darius III, after also officiating during the latter part of the reign of Artaxerxes II (13 years) and through the reign of Artaxerxes III (20 years) & IV (2 years).

  Cambyses and Artaxerxes I are miles apart chronologically, as are Darius III/Alexander and Darius II.

  Refer to chart already given. The periods are entirely plausible.