Radar, I take Acts 7 as literal.
As for Carmel, I disagree with the last part of his comment on Jesus. 1 John 2:22; 1 John 4:2
Jesus was a False Prophet
by JosephAlward 32 Replies latest watchtower bible
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roybatty
I read and "believe in" the Bible AND I find Joe's posts to be just fine. Why do people get so pissed off when someone else questions their beliefs? Personally, I like to be challenged regarding my beliefs. Who knows, maybe something better is out there.
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gumby
Gee, Joey Alward!.....you must just put in tons of research before you make all of your Einsteinlike observations!
Have you EVER looked up ANY of the scriptures that you try and totally twist in a Commentary before.
You take what you read at FACE VALUE without thought of backround.
I guess you get a lot of attention though, since a few here share your opinions and that makes it worth posting.
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JosephAlward
Kenneson wrote,
Joseph wrote: But what sensible man would think that Jesus
No, Kenneson; he couldn't have done it later, because Matthew says that Peter said to Jesus,
would interrupt an event {transfiguration] which is one of the
most important since the dawn of time to do something as mundane
as telling Peter who those men were? Couldn't he have done it
later?
Perhaps Jesus did."Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." (Matthew 17:1-4)
Thus, Peter knew immediately after the transfiguration that the two men with Jesus were Elijah and Moses. If the Matthew account is correct, Jesus must have introduced Peter to Moses and Elijah, or else they introduced themselves. Either way, it doesn't make sense. Either the Bible is in error, or else one of the most important events since the dawn of time was interrupted for polite introductions.Now, since Matthew wasn't there at the transfiguration, don't you think it is more likely that this story is flawed, and that Peter didn't really use the names "Elijah" and "Moses" when he spoke to Jesus, rather than believe that this story is literally true, even though it is obviously second-hand? Which is more likely the case, do you think?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible" -
gumby
His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus
[How] did Peter, James, and John recognise Moses and Elijah next to Jesus? Perhaps they had a painting of them somewhere hidden in their robes, eh?
Moses and Elijah....TALKING WITH JESUS.
Do you suppose in their talking with one another that Peter could have figured out...who's who?
It didn't say HOW LONG they were talking BEFORE Peter butted in. -
Kenneson
Alward writes: "Now since Matthew wasn't there at the transfiguration, don't you think it is more likely that this story
is flawed, and that Peter didn't really use the names "Elijah" and "Moses" when he spoke to Jesus, rather than believe that this story is literally true, even through it is obviously second-hand? Which is more likely the case, do you think?"Actually the writer of Matthew doesn't tell us whether Peter was his source or someone else. Nor does he tell us when or how Peter knew
it was Moses and Elijah. Is it literal? Perhaps it is literal that Jesus, Peter, James and John went up a mountain. What did they actually see? Did they physically see Moses and Elijah? Or did they have a vision? I don't know. But Matt. 17:8, 9 says: "And when the disciples raised their eyes, they saw no one else but Jesus
alone...Do not tell the vision to anyone..." -
JosephAlward
Kenneson wrote,
What did they actually see? Did they physically see Moses and Elijah? Or did they have a vision? I don't know.
Peter couldn't have just had a "vision" of Moses and Elijah standing there, because Peter asked Jesus if he should build a tent for each of them, one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah:"Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
Matthew is quoting what Peter actually said; there is no room to believe that Matthew is telling us what Peter had a vision of saying.Now, if there had not actually been Moses and Elijah standing there, the question Matthew had Peter ask Jesus would make no sense. Thus, there seems to be no doubt that Matthew wanted us to know that Moses and Elijah were actually standing with Jesus, and that Peter saw them, and referred to them by name. Unless we are to imagine that Jesus paused as one of the most important events since the dawn of time was in progress to introduce these divine figures to Peter, we probably should assume that Matthew was not telling the literal truth in this story.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible" -
Kenneson
Joseph writes: "...we probably should assume that Matthew was not telling the literal truth in this story..."
Fair enough. So what do you propose is the message underlying this story?
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JosephAlward
So what do you propose is the message underlying this story?
It is just one story among a great many intended to convince readers that Jesus was the son of God. One of the ways the writers of the gospels tried to show that Jesus was God was to show that he could predict the future, but in at least one case, they botched the attempt. I will show in another thread that Jesus was quite wrong in his prediction about the timing of Peter's denials.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible" -
plmkrzy
Joseph said
"Peter couldn't have just had a "vision" of Moses and Elijah standing there, because Peter asked Jesus if he should built a tent for each of them, one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah:"
I'm not arguing either way right now I just wanted to say something regarding this statement. I don't agree with it because asking jesus if he should put up tents for them does not mean they were not seeing a vision. Did they look up and say "Hey where did they go?" But instead he was interupted while he was asking what to do about there sudden presence and after they fell to there knees and looked away and after Jesus told them not to be afraid and they looked up to see there was Only Jesus it became obvious to them that they were seeing what God Wanted them to see otherwise why didn't Jesus say instead,"Hey, whats up with you guy's?" "Did you loose something on the ground?"
There is another scripture prior to this in Matt that could be used as an example of the same point.
Matt 16:5-8 andMatt 16:12 "Then they grasped that he said to watch out, not for the leaven of the loaves, but for the teachings of the Pharisees and the Sadducees".
All through the book of Matthew there are many refferences to Jesus simply making "Points"Not to mention that the book of Matthew is a work of what someone said someone said and then written.