Is God all in the head?

by sleepy 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    Through out time and nearly all human cultures and civilizations people have believed in God or Gods?
    Why is this?
    Did this develop purly as a means for us to explian the world , or is there a part of the brain that causes peolpe to be religious?

    There is evidence that in fact certain parts of the brain are highly involved in religious beliefs and feelings.

    Its possible to actualy stimulate certain parts of the brain with a device that generates a strong magnetic field.

    Aim it at the front of the Thalamus and you might experience a orgasm.(Yes I want one too)A blind person ( who is blind due to defects in the eye) could aim it at his visual cortex and experience colour.
    How about the temporal Lobes?

    "When Canadian pshychologist Dr Micheal Persinger got hold of a similar device a few years ago, he chose instead to stimulate parts of his temporal lobes.And to amazement experienced God for the first time"(Phatoms in the Brain V.S.Ramachandran CH9, God and the Limbic system)

    In fact it seems that many people experiencing epilectic seizures originating in that part of the brain (temporal lobes) can have intense, spiritual experiences and become preocupied with religious and moral issues.

    Do people with stronger religious feelings just have more activity in the temporal lobes than others?
    Did God put it there for that purpose?
    Or is it a freak of evolution, a stimulator maybe first used for another purpose?

    I wonder if any one on the GB is epilectic?

  • Francois
    Francois

    I don't know about that, but I do know about a book that might be interesting to you. It's called "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind." (Julian Janes) I read it years and years ago, but it directly addresses some of your questions, as far as I can remember. Give it a shot.

    Frank

  • gravedancer
    gravedancer

    great post sleepy!!!!

    The professor's (Ramachandran's) work is impressive. He has documented cases of brain stimulation whereby patients even thought parts of their body did not belong to them such as when a patient was asked "whose arm is that" he replied "it's my brothers arm".

    He shows clearly (as do other scientists) that our spiritual feelings of God and our sense of certainty come from the brain's temporal lobes.

    Here is an interesting one:

    ...pain also comes as an illusion from a construction of the brain just as any other sensory experience. Even people with missing arms or legs can feel intense pain in their phantom limbs
    But his most remarkable work comes from the discovery of God. Patients who have deeply moving spiritual experiences, including a feeling of divine presence and the sense that they are in direct communion with God. Everything around them is imbued with cosmic significance. They may say, "I finally understand what it's all about. This is the moment I've been waiting for all my life. Suddenly it all makes sense." Or, "Finally have insight into the true nature of the cosmos."

    The most interesting part of the work to me is this: that religios belief, discovery of God originates from limbic structures concerned with emotions rather than from the thinking, rational parts of the brain that take so much pride in their ability to discern truth and falsehood.

    That is why it is almost impossible to REASON with people who have faith and deep seated conviction. When one equates faith to mental illness (as I have done) some find it highly offensive but either I am mentally ill for not having it or they are mentally ill for having it. To quote your cherished book "...let the reader use discernment".

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Like you all, God is a real person. I wander how would YOU feel if Jehovah believes you "all in the head?"

  • gumby
    gumby

    or is there a part of the brain that causes peolpe to be religious?

    This is a good point against Evolution.
    Can we say this "inborn" need to worship, came from lower animal life we were supposed to have evolved from?
    Do animals worship God? How did this get in our brain? Who put it their? Why...what was the reason?

    On a recent show...a tribe that had never seen any other humans before was asked(by tribal communication)...where they went when they died.....they pointed their finger ....up in the sky.

    Where did they get such an idea from?
    BTW....no dubs had ever "CALLED ON THEM"

    NICE THREAD SLEEPY!

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck
    In fact it seems that many people experiencing epilectic seizures originating in that part of the brain (temporal lobes) can have intense, spiritual experiences and become preocupied with religious and moral issues.

    As someone with Epilepsy, I can assure you this did not happen in my case.

    I have adult onset Epilepsy. I have grand mal seizures (the kind that make you bite your tounge and feel like you got hit by a semi the next day)

    I have become less spiritual, less religious...morals have remained the same.

    Since I read the Epilepsy Foundation every month, go online to their web site and do other research on how to make it stop, I have never read anything related to this.

    When you have a petite mal seizure or a seizure where you get an aura then kinda blank out, you may feel that you saw God, when in fact your brain was having a massive electrical short.

    If you want to believe you saw God you will believe it...does that make sense?

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Sleepy: Interesting discussion. When I was 36 I had a mild stroke in the Temporal lobe, and this resulted in a subsequent diagnosis of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (Now called Temporal Lobe Seizure Disorder because it is not exactly like Epilepsy in that the victim can still function to drive, and perform normal activities). I had been a JW 15 years by that time. I took medication for a year, and the problem went away. It was not long after this that I began to have concerns, and left the JW religion 5 years later, by age 41.

    I am now almost 51, and now consider myself a Christian Diest ... that is I believe in God, and hold to Christian principles, by I have rejected all revealed religion as pure human invention. This makes me just a step away from Agnostic.

    The symptoms I had during the TLSD after my stroke was extreme levels of Jamais' vu opposite of Deja' vu. I had an exagerrated sense of smell, and other minor symptoms. I lost track of time, and could focus so intensly that I lost perspective of everything else around me and would not recall, for example, having driving from one location to another. But, I never had any "God" or "Spiritual" experience apart from denouncing religion.

  • rhett
    rhett

    So, I guess it could very well be said that very religous people have brain disorders.
    I guess that could somewhat explain cults. It also explains other things as well. Doesn't really suprise me though.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Interesting Amazing. From the timeline, I assume you felt yourself annointed previous to the stroke?

    Although, either way, it seems reasonable to speculate that you had a certain amount of temporal lobe abnormality prior to the stroke? Or no?

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    I would like to clarify some information.

    As a person with Epilepsy (or the politically correct term) Seizure Disorder, I would like to say, I am able to drive and perform normal activities. I don't suppose I could be approved to fly a jet, however, those are not my aspirations.

    I have had only nocturnal (middle of the night) grand mal seizures. These are the bad boys of the seizure world. With proof from my doctors, this has allowed me to drive a car and carry on a semi- normal life.

    After a grand mal seizure, I sleep for about 20 hours and cannot remember what happened the night before it occured, nor can I remember my husband trying to calm me down.

    I have had memory loss. The doctors are now admitting that when you have a seizure, you are doing damage to your brain. They just don't know how badly.

    Epilepsy is like an electrical wiring problem; only in your head. When you have a seizure your brain wires are not connecting like they should and boom, you have one. Medication can control this.

    A stroke is a blood vessel in your head malfunctioning. Totally different. However, after having a seizure, one could be inclined to have seizures, hence the anti-seizure meds Amazing was on.

    Usually, a seizure disorder does not go away. Doc will put a patient at risk for a seizure on meds to ensure that a seizure does not occur. If you have had a stroke, you are at risk.

    In my case, I had head injuries. I have had 7 major concussions since I was a baby. Or the Epilepsy could have been brought on by the doctors using forceps at birth. They have no idea what causes Epilepsy, however, they do have some things down that seem to trigger it. Head trauma is a major cause. Once you have seizures, later in life, they usually do not go away. I was told that since I did not have a brain tumor, I would be off my meds within 2 years. 15 years later, I still have epilepsy. I have 2-3 seizures a year. Apparently the docs did not want to alarm me. It is a life time disorder.

    So, I guess it could very well be said that very religous people have brain disorders.
    NO. Years ago people were considered possessed by the devil when they had a seizure. People did not understand it was a medical condition. Since the person having a seizure is not going to remember much immediately before the seizure, people watching must have thought they were possessed. This was common.

    The issue of aura's before a seizure is very common. People will know when they are going to have one and can get to a safe place when they do. This means that if you are driving you pull over and stop the car. If you are standing, sit or lay down.

    The issues of having an ephiphany afterward to make someone more religious is a crock of bull. Perhaps people who already have a belief in God will have a stronger faith, however, I do not think having a seizure disorder makes one happy. It sucks. Your life is turned upside down by the meds, the lack of understanding and the discrimination.

    If this makes someone think they saw God during a seizure more power to 'em. However, this is not common.

    The following information is from the Epilepsy Foundation website:

    Complex partial seizures affect a larger area of the brain and they also affect consciousness.

    During a complex partial seizure, a person cannot interact normally with other people, is not in control of his movements, speech, or actions; doesn't know what he's doing; and cannot remember afterwards what happened during the seizure.

    Although someone may appear to be conscious because he stays on his feet, his eyes are open and he can move about, it will be an altered consciousness, a dreamlike, almost trancelike state.

    Typically, a complex partial seizure starts with a blank stare and loss of contact with surroundings.

    This is often followed by chewing movements with the mouth, picking at or fumbling with clothing, mumbling, and performing simple, unorganized movements over and over again.

    Sometimes people wander around during complex partial seizures. For example, a person might leave a room, go downstairs, and out into the street, completely unaware of what he or she was doing.

    In rare cases, someone might try to undress during the seizure, or become very agitated, screaming, running, or making flailing movements with his arms or bicycling movements with his legs.

    Other complex partial seizures may cause a person to run in apparent fear, or cry out, or repeat the same phrase, over and over again.

    People's actions and movements are typically unorganized, confused, and unfocused during a complex partial seizure.

    A person may even be able to speak, but the words are unlikely to make sense and he or she will not be able to respond to others in an appropriate way.

    Although complex partial seizures can affect any area of the brain, they often take place in one of the brain's two temporal lobes. Because of this, the condition is sometimes called "temporal lobe epilepsy."

    Because someone having a complex partial seizure is unaware of what's going on around him, he won't be able to talk normally with other people during the seizure.

    Nor will he be able to follow instructions, or obey police commands, or even recognize danger from heat, water, fire, heights or other threatening situations.

    However, some people may be able to follow simple requests made in a calm, friendly voice.

    Simple and complex partial seizures can produce a very wide range of changed feelings or behavior. However, what each person does or feels during a seizure is likely to be the same and occur in the same order each time.

    Doctors call this type of seizure-caused behavior "stereotyped."

    Lack of public understanding has led to people with complex partial seizures being unfairly arrested as drunk or disorderly, being accused by others of unlawful activity, indecent exposure, or drug abuse -- all because of actions produced by seizures.

    Such actions may even be misdiagnosed as symptoms of mental illness, leading to inappropriate treatment and, in some cases, commitment to an institution.

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