Hello.

by gloria 57 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Prisca

  Hello Gloria and welcome. After all the madness of the last few days its nice to see some 'normality' come back again!

  I apprectiate your still being strong in the Truth and I admire your courage to mingle with what other Witnesses may term "apostates". We don't exactly like that term to be applied to ourselves, as many of us still have a belief in Jehovah and His promises, it's just that our consciences don't permit us to follow a man-made religion.

  As someone who was raised as a Witness, I agree with RedhorseWoman's words about not being allowed to read and examine our own religion. What I mean is is this : have you read any books by those who used to be Witnesses? Read about their experiences in the Truth? Or books written by academics about the Witnesses? If you haven't, is it because you just don't want to, or is it because you have been discouraged to?

  If we are not allowed to read what others write about our religion, then why should we expect others to read what the Society writes about their religion??

  If we can't examine our own religion and read writings about the Witnesses and the history of the Society, then why on earth should we read information about other religions? Plenty has been written by the Society about other religions, the Catholic Church in particular. Do you believe what you read?

  I would encourage you to have an open mind when it comes to the history of the Society and the developments of their teachings. Examine what you believe with what the Bible says and listen to your conscience.
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Gloria, as Prisca pointed out, and as you stated yourself, all of the research into other beliefs is done through WTBTS publications. Would you feel comfortable in taking literature from a householder that is written about their beliefs? I know that when I was active, we were strictly taught that we should not do such a thing.

  Rather than researching a topic through the WT publications, do you feel comfortable going to outside sources? I highly doubt it.

  Everything is carefully worded so as to keep your mind in the "proper" place. If you are really honest about this, you'll have to agree that unless it has been published by the WTBTS, it is forbidden reading (or at the very least, discouraged).
• 

  SixofNine

  Hi Gloria

  SixofNine, thank you for your reply. You say the truth will set me free but I have been taught all my life that I AM in the truth.

  Sigh...me too. Really hard to get your mind around the idea that we may have been wrong all our lives.

  Check out the following LIST of WT quotes I found:

  http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
  http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm
  http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jmalik/TheList.zip
  http://www.3dom.freeserve.co.uk/main.htm
  http://www.concordance.com/watchtower.htm

  It is FULLY IN ACCORDANCE with the teachings of the WATCHTOWER Bible &
  Tract Society (WTBTS) for every member of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES to Carefully
  Study the preceeding LIST, which comprises truly fine scriptural food from
  its own publications. Remember the WTBTS told you to confirm whether what
  was taught by the WTBTS was in harmony with the Bible - and if not, not to
  circulate it {WT Mar 1 1894 repr p1629}, to confirm WT teachings against
  the Bible {WT May 1 1934 p131}, to invite critical examination of your
  faith {WT Aug 15 1950 p263}, that, far from being wrong, it is your duty to
  examine religion to see if it is true or false {WT Nov 15 1963 p688}, that
  you should actively examine your own religion {The Truth That Leads To
  Eternal Life 1968 p13, a WTBTS publication}, that you should check and
  examine BOTH sides of a matter {Awake! Oct 22 1973 p6}, that your religion
  was in no way afraid of being exposed to scrutiny {WT Aug 1 1978 p12}, that
  you should to be willing to submit everything to scrutiny {Awake! Aug 22
  1984 p22/28}, that you should not have a closed mind {WT Nov 22 1984 p3-4},
  that you should actively refer to the older publications {WT Jun 15 1985
  p12}, that all people are encouraged to examine other religions with an
  open mind {WT Apr 1 1991 p17} and that you are encouraged to exhibit
  freedom of thought {Awake! Jun 8 1994 p21}. So, please follow the advice of
  the WTBTS as just given, and study this LIST very carefully. "You will know
  the Truth and the Truth will set you free."(John 8:32). Fine advice indeed!

  Edited by - SixofNine on 8 February 2001 7:16:54
• 

  JAVA

  Gloria (we need to quit meeting like this),
  

  Java, you keep comparing the truth with the Catholic religion. Surely having been an elder and all you can’t seriously compare one to the other. -gloria

  
  You missed my point; I used the Catholic church because Witnesses meet many Catholics while going door-to-door. I'm not suggesting the Catholics and JWs are similar religions. I used the Catholics because their religion is different. That being said, the Catholic Church states they are the only true religion, and many Catholics believe that to be true. Of course JWs don't believe that, but that's not the point.

  Catholics who believe they have the true religion can easily say what you said, "It makes sense that once we know what is true that there is no point in looking any further." Witnesses can see the flawed reasoning when others say these words, but fail to see the flaw when they do it. If using the Catholic religion to compare is problematic, use the Seventh-day Adventist or other religions, because the group doesn't change the argument. The point is when anyone says, "It makes sense that once we know what is true that there is no point in looking any further," they can't honestly examine their own house.

  RedhorseWoman, SixofNine, and Prisca have already pointed out some excellent thoughts about the sources we use in our spiritual quest. Indeed, if Catholics only use information printed by the Catholic Church to examine their religion, what type of examination would that be?

  --JAVA, a cup without coffee is like a room without windows
• 

  gloria

  I have been reading a lot of posts here. It appears that some here are quite serious and well meaning while others are frivolous and yet others appear to be either amused by it all or intend to be disruptive. How does one separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak? There is too much to consider if one tries to consider it all. The MDS person seems to have a lot of knowledge of the Bible but then so do the brothers at headquarters. If what he says is true, why wouldn’t they be able to see it?
  Once a person becomes convinced they have the truth should they then proceed to question it at each and every opportunity, looking for anything and everything that might possibly be a flaw and then concentrating on that flaw until the whole garment is ripped apart? Human reasoning itself is flawed. Mistakes are to be expected.
  I know what the Society teaches and I have read the scriptures backing that up. What else is required? Should I accept someone else’s interpretation? Upon what basis should I do this? I have a large brotherhood that is very loving and kind. This is very real. What else is out there in the world? How can I be sure what others say about the brothers is true? The apostles did not constantly demand that Jesus prove who he was, did they?
  Java, thank you for your patience with me. My point is that one should be thoroughly convinced that what he has is the truthbeforehe accepts that religion. This is what I did. Having the truth is different from believing that you have it. What is untrue is already corrupted but the truth must not be allowed to become corrupted. That would be like eating from the table of Jehovah and from the table of demons.
  I have talked to several Catholics that have told me that they know their religion is not right from the things that go on in their church. They did not learn of this by reading our material but they were able to see it for themselves. If there is something wrong with the truth, we should be able to see it for ourselves. There are many smart people that are JWs, lawyers, doctors, and all sorts of very well educated people. They would know if there is something wrong.
  SixofNine, there is so much there for me to read! I’m afraid that it’s almost overwhelming. I noticed that some of the publications you cited were very old. I have no way of knowing that those old publications actually say that. You have taken many phrases out of those articles and strung them together. Perhaps you have not considered them in the context in which they were written. Have you considered this? It looks like you went to a lot of trouble with this and I thank you for your effort. I am still reading those articles.
• 

  ianao

  Gloria:

  I have been reading a lot of posts here. It appears that some here are quite serious and well meaning while others are frivolous and yet others appear to be either amused by it all or intend to be disruptive. How does one separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak?

  That is for YOU to decide, for yourself.

  The MDS person seems to have a lot of knowledge of the Bible but then so do the brothers at headquarters. If what he says is true, why wouldn’t they be able to see it?

  Something else for YOU to decide. MDS can tell you why they can't see his "real truth", but the society can tell you why HE can't see their "real truth".

  Once a person becomes convinced they have the truth should they then proceed to question it at each and every opportunity, looking for anything and everything that might possibly be a flaw and then concentrating on that flaw until the whole garment is ripped apart? Human reasoning itself is flawed. Mistakes are to be expected.

  If you REALLY believe this, then how do you feel going door to door and asking others to throw away their "truth" of which they were VERY convinced before they ever spoke with you in the first place?

  one should be thoroughly convinced that what he has is the truthbeforehe accepts that religion.

  Then why is it NOT OK for a householder to listen to what others say on the about the society? Why are "outsider's" points of view considered as incredulous? And I mean REAL outside points of view, not an encyclopedia quoting from a WTS source.

  Also, if someone indeed should be convinced that they have the right religion BEFORE they accept it, why do you ask people to break this very rule at their own doorstep and denounce their religion for yours?

  there is something wrong with the truth, we should be able to see it for ourselves.

  Keep reading that old literature. When you find that they DO NOT say the same things the WTS says they say, you will see why you might not be able to "see [something wrong with the truth] for yourself". Why else would they forbid you from doing it?

  I personally understand the turmoil you are under (I had these same problems myself). You are told HOW to discern what is true, then you are conditioned to parallel "truth" with Biblical interpretation. After you come to the "predestined conclusion" and a touch of "new light" indoctrination, you are now unable to discern true from false. Everything is a matter of "present truth", so falsification of the conditioners are cancelled out by the conditioners and channeled to other religions. The result? What was once another's point of view regarding religion becomes THE point of view regarding LIFE. Brainlock. Conditioning can now commence with no president, and you can be convinced to litterally have two points of view at the same time. Fascinating phenomenon.

  ...Programming complete...

  Sorry, didn't mean to bore you with the analysis. I'm edgy today, forgive me. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  I have talked to several Catholics that have told me that they know their religion is not right from the things that go on in their church. They did not learn of this by reading our material but they were able to see it for themselves. If there is something wrong with the truth, we should be able to see it for ourselves. There are many smart people that are JWs, lawyers, doctors, and all sorts of very well educated people. They would know if there is something wrong.

  BINGO! This was exactly why I, personally, decided that the WTBTS was not "the truth". There were things that were wrong, and I didn't have to be a doctor or a lawyer or well-educated to see it. All I needed was a modicum of intelligence and a refusal to close my eyes to the wrongs I saw committed every day within the walls of the Watchtower.

  The problem with noticing flaws and problems within the organization for any active JW is that you are constantly taught that it is wrong to look at imperfections. And yet, JWs tell those of other religions to examine the flaws in their religions and hold them up to scrutiny, all the while denying that right to its own members.

  When the Catholic Church "corrects" a doctrine, the WTBTS grabs onto that and chortles with glee at the Church's invalid teachings. And yet, when the WTBTS revises doctrines over and over again, it is declared to be "new light" and held up as certification of its truthfulness. Gloria, can you see the doubletalk at work here?

  When the GB states unequivocally that something will come to pass within a certain time period, all JWs are enjoined to accept the teachings as coming from Jehovah himself, since He is speaking through the GB. Yet, when these teachings are shown to be in error, the GB exclaims that they are "only imperfect men" and are prone to error.

  So, then, are they imperfect and therefore not inspired by God? If so, what makes their sayings the "truth"? Are the teachings then just a best-guess scenario by well-meaning Bible students?

  Or....are they inspired of God? If so, then why have their teachings needed modification numerous times? Does Jehovah mumble?

  Additionally, all of the "wrongs" that have been committed by other religions have also been committed by the WTBTS. The major difference is that most JWs are in total denial and refuse to examine what is actually going on.

  At various times I have related many of my personal observations and experiences that showed many duplicitous, immoral, unethical, illegal and cruel activities that went on in every congregation to which I belonged. These were the reasons for my becoming inactive. These were the reasons why I determined that JWs do NOT have "the truth".

  Don't close your eyes to the true nature of the beast, Gloria, or it may devour you.
• 

  larc

  Gloria,

  For those with more than one personality, I think it is time for you to go home, just like Danielle did. Enough is enough, if you get my drift. Making people edgy, like you did to Ianao is not a good thing. "Ya you rah"
• 

  logical

  Gloria:

  The MDS person seems to have a lot of knowledge of the Bible but then so do the brothers at headquarters. If what he says is true, why wouldn’t they be able to see it?

  The same could be said of Jesus and the Pharisees back in that day. Now we all know the story... and history has this nack of repeating itself.

  >>> http://www.geocities.com/logical_7/index.html
• 

  logical

  ianao:

  I'm edgy today, forgive me. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...

  Im not surprised, tripping yourself and everyone out with your dodgy website findings

  >>> http://www.geocities.com/logical_7/index.html