A Video Series about 607 BC vs 587 BC

by Londo111 272 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Londo 111

    I enjoyed your series of videos attempting to refute the validity of 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem. No doubt there are some technical errors in your topics but some of which have already been coorected by Jeffro. You have contributed nothing new to this long standing academic debate for all that you have presented is simply a rehash in a pictorial form of Carl Jonsson's Gentile Times Reconsidered. Your arguments against the interpetation of the seventy years as explained by the Witnesses fails on several grounds and have long been debated and refuted on this website over many years. Chronology is very complex and much of which is subject to interpretation and that is why that in many reference works there is single agreed tabulation of OT Chronology and this is especially manifest when it comes to the Divided Monarchy.

    WT chronology as produced by celebrated WT scholars over many decades is superior to all others in that it alone is faithful to the biblical text, biblical theology, secular history, archaeology, historiography and hermeneutics. It particularly has the advantage of its simplicity and rooted in Prophecy. Scholars have and continue to stumble over an interpretation of the seventy years, they cannot agree as to its beginning and end nor its duration and this is where you have a major problem. Carl Jonsson who has researched this subject most thoroughly has not decided whether 605 or 609 BCE is the begiining of the seventy years for either date has the acceptance of some scholars. The seventy years has proven to be one of the most complex and highly disputative subjects in OT history and it is only the Witnesses that have solved the problem with a very simple methodology a prime requisite for any chronologist.

    The ending of the seventy years at Babylon's Fall in 539BCE simply does not work because Jeremiah clearly shows that the seventy years was one of servitude, exile and desolation and these three factors could only conclude at the point of the Exilic Return in 537 BCE. Jeremiah is quite emphatic about the seventy years and it most certainly belonged to Judah and not Babylon as you maintain. The ending of the Exile in 537 BCE is the best candidate for this event according to current scholarship fore 538 BCE is considered to be impossible and 535 and other later dates are simply impossible. Most reference works such as Biblical history, atlasses and scholarly papers in journals tend to favour 537 over any other date.

    However, one of your biggest problems is the fact that even to this day scholars do not know the precise calender year for the Fall whether it is 586 or 587 BCE for the Fall. The scholarly literature has always and continues to this day favour the 586 date as opposed to 587. So this means that any argument against a definite, calculated date such as 607 is superfluous if such critics cannot determine a precise calender date for the Fall. You would need to get this right before saying that 607 is wrong.

    Your presentation lacks substance and suffers from a lack of careful exegesis, it amounts to eisegesis rather than exegesis and simply reflects a biased opinion. Throughout your entire preentation you omit any reference to Josephus who had a lot to say about the seventy years and ALL of his comments support WT Biblical chronology and not that of Neo-Babylonian chronology.

    scholar JW

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Londo. I enjoyed your series. I appreciated that you barely even mentioned the Watchtower (so far, I have only watched 8) and you made a complex subject simple. Because you did not openly rag on the Watchtower that will allow me to use you videos to try to help my wife see. There is no way she would ever read EOGT but this is simple enough and enough like a documentary that I think I will be able to get away with it.

    I will let you know how it goes.

    Thanks for your effort.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    pseudo-scholar:

    However, one of your biggest problems is the fact that even to this day scholars do not know the precise calender year for the Fall whether it is 586 or 587 BCE for the Fall.

    No. You're an idiot. It was definitely 587.

    It might be better if you just go away before you embarrass yourself further.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    pseudo-scholar:

    The ending of the Exile in 537 BCE is the best candidate for this event according to current scholarship fore 538 BCE is considered to be impossible and 535 and other later dates are simply impossible.

    Wow. He's not even attempting a cogent argument. There is no 'current scholarship' that says 538 is 'impossible'. And there is no reason at all to say 537 is "the best candidate". Especially if you accept what was written in the book of Ezra.

    The only reason the Watch Tower Society insists on 537 is it is required for their dogma about 1914. It is based entirely on circular reasoning and eisegesis.

    Seriously, just go away.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Scholar/Neil,

    Welcome back to JWN.

    I’ve heard allot about you. You mainly posted way before my time, but your legend lives on. I’m kind of flattered that of all the JW Apologists out there, you were the first apologist to post on my channel.

    In your absense, there was even a person who pretended to be you, but they were found out very quickly.

    In regard Josephus, there are quotes that the Society used to support the 70 year destruction. But then Josephus contridicts himself in Against Apion I, where he says," This statement is both correct and in accordance with our books [that is, the Holy Scriptures]. For in the latter it is recorded that Nabochodonosor in the eighteenth year of his reign devastated our temple, that for fifty years it ceased to exist, that in the second year of Cyrus the foundations were laid, and lastly that in the second year of the reign of Darius it was completed."

    For the sake of time, I left out Josephus. I don't consider him a primary historian for the Exile period, and the focus was more on what the Bible says, not Josephus.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    pseudo-scholar:

    So this means that any argument against a definite, calculated date such as 607 is superfluous if such critics cannot determine a precise calender date for the Fall. You would need to get this right before saying that 607 is wrong.

    And that is even stupider than the other things you said. 607 isn't a "precise calendar date". It's based on speculation and circular reasoning about the entirely arbitrary selection of 537 in order to maintain 2520 years before 1914. In fact, the Watch Tower Society changed the alleged date of the return of the Jews in the 1940s from 536 to 537, when they realised there was no 'year 0', prior to which, they dogmatically asserted that Jerusalem 'definitely' fell in 606 BCE. Morons.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    If you are so certain about 587 BCE then why not submit a paper outlining your views so it can be published in the scholarly literature. I am sure that scholars will greatly appreciate your dogmatism. No doubt your dogmatic opinion will impress the scholarly community.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Seriously, just go away. You clearly have nothing sensible to offer.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Londo111

    I am fully aware of Josephu's comment about the fifty years. This can easily be explained either as a textual error, an incorrect quotation of Berossus or that Josephus was observing a fifty year marker for the actual temple within the overall seventy year period. In any event his many other comment about the seventy years agrees fully with WT interpretation.

    Your omitting any refernce to Josephus undermines the credibility of your presentation for he is the only authority of Jewish biblical history outside of the Bible writers.

    scholar JW

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Indian Larry,

    Thank you. I strove conscientiously not to call the Watchtower out by name, or to speculate on motivations of why people teach 607. I’m trying my best not to alienate JWs, but speak from the heart and from the facts as I understand them.

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