Steve2: Are you being serious? How is that argument any different than saying a JW who speaks out against the Watchtower Society and gets disfellowshipped for apostasy knew the consequences so shouldn't boo-hoo about how they were treated unjustly or cruelly? Unless you believe that as well...
700 JWs imprisoned in Korea
by NeverKnew 30 Replies latest jw friends
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Laika
On the OP, I actually think that JWs refusal to get involved in War or any military service is the JWs best argument in favour of their religion. Not that it's completely foolproof or makes them the true religion, or even 'most christian' but it's a very difficult discussion to have with a JW and the last thing I'd want to debate them on.
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steve2
Steve2: Are you being serious? How is that argument any different than saying a JW who speaks out against the Watchtower Society and gets disfellowshipped for apostasy knew the consequences so shouldn't boo-hoo about how they were treated unjustly or cruelly? Unless you believe that as well...
Valid point. My comment was confined to the OP's particular focus on Christians being imprisoned and her subsequent passing reference suggesting we should pray for them. I will grant my reaction was more about the latter than the former.
Also, if, after one has been booted out, imprisoned, shunned, tarred-and-feathered and so on, one continues to belly-ache about how bad it all is - and then goes back to preach as some Christians do when they know full well their work is banned, you could be forgiven for accepting that is what they feel the need to do - but, in my view, they need to be prepared for reduced sympathy from othersd when they get imprisoned and/or tarred-and-feathered again. Once bitten, twice shy?
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Laika
Fair enough Steve, but I think in many countries, such as North Korea, Christians can get imprisoned just for gathering together to worship, and not just for preaching.
Also: JWs rarely pray for people outside of their denomination, or against injustices. Not just with regards to religious oppression, but also things like praying to help the hungry and homeless, except in a general way by asking for Armageddon/God's kingdom (which is supposed to wipe out the persecuted Christians and starving children). It may be that praying for such things is a waste of time anyway, but it does provide an insight into the way JWs feel about others.
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DATA-DOG
Steve 2,
Are you saying that every Christian persecuted, raped, ect, had it coming? Not all who have Christian beliefs are out causing trouble, or judging others. Your comments are totally off, and you paint every " Christian " with the same brush. Follow your reasoning to it's conclusion. That thinking is prejudicial. Did gays deserve a beat down when gay-marriage was illegal? Why all the boo-hooing? They should have been gay in private, and shouldn't be out advertising their gayness. Just hide who you are, and act straight around others. What if you are living in secret, and someone turns you in? I guess you had it coming. If you go into a country that hates gays, then take it on the chin. I don't want to hear your whinning.
Why can't someone pray for another person, Christian or not? Also, no one is defending the WTBTS.
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DATA-DOG
Steve,
I posted this before I saw your comments on this page. I totally understand why you are angry at Christians/JW's. So am I. You are usually fair in your comments.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
I'm a female ....I should have known. Your icon has that classic female shape
neverknew's icon is hot and obviously female.
Grrrrrrr!!!
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redvip2000
I actually think that JWs refusal to get involved in War or any military service is the JWs best argument in favour of their religion. Not that it's completely foolproof or makes them the true religion, or even 'most christian' but it's a very difficult discussion to have with a JW and the last thing I'd want to debate them on.
I'ved debated plenty on this, since it's one of the points they make along with "we are the only ones preaching". The point i usually make is that armies have a function to protect at a national level in the manner that police do it at a local level.
If a village of JWs gets attacked, don't have the right (and duty) to protect themselves in an organized way even if it means killing to preserve their lives? What if the people attacking, also call themselves Jehovah Witnesses ? Wouldn't you agree that despite calling themselves JWs, they clearly aren't? And shouldn't you still defend yourselves?
They usually get the point of why perhaps in wars there are people of the same religion on opposite sides.
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Laika
redvip2000, yeah, 'preaching work' and 'we don't go to war against our brothers' are the exact 2 arguments my Dad and Brother have made to me when I told them I didn't believe JWs had the true religion.
You make a good argument, I just think it's the last, or one of the last, things you're going to get a JW to agree to. Once they're agreeing that war can have moral validity, they've probably already gone apostate in most other areas.
I usually say that there's more to love than not going to war and I don't feel very loved being treated with contempt or threatened with shunning for thoughtcrimes.
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steve2
The luxury of being a conscientious objector or of taking a neutral stand depends on having a military that will protect you and your family from attack. It maskes no sense to object if your country is overrun and surrender is the sanest answer.
To argue that, if everyone were a conscientious objector there'd be no more war ignores the incontrovertible historical fact that the status of "No war" is an outcome, not of peace, but rather, of having in place the demonstrated ability to defend oneself and one's own. Bullies do not respond nicely to sweet reason - as the Watchtower itself demonstrates - but to considered displays of one's ability to defend oneself.