The Outing of Faders, and the Epilogue of Sic Semper Tyrannis

by zed is dead 298 Replies latest members private

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  144001

  <<<< 144001, Incorrect, Cedars is the one derailing the efforts of Cedars by his own duplicity. zed>>>>

  Zed,

  Take a second look at your comment above.

  I have read many of your posts over the time you've been here and I've been pretty impressed with the vast majority of those that I've read. The post above seems to simulate the sounds of childhood squabbling; "you did so; I did not; nyah nyah na ya ya." No offense or disrespect is intended, but the fact that you made the post above illustrates my previous point: it's time to move on.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Jeremiah 18:5-10 said:

  Zed, Otwo, unconfused, lost

  What is conjecture?

  1- cedars personally force-added these people

  2- cedars condoned the force-adding

  3- cedars desired to expose hiding Faders

  4- cedars held ultimate authority and chose to do nothing

  5- cedars isn't sorry at all and is insensitive

  Honestly, I do not think Cedars (or anyone at BBXB) wanted anyone to be hurt by what was done. I even feel that he is sorry that this happened. It is clear from what Cedars said that he admits getting word from individuals that there was a severe problem, yet he tries to say that there is no record of a particularly named indivual contacting him. It is clear that he really felt that he needed more information from people who would have no desire to give more information at the time. He falls back on that same thing now, wanting more proof. At least he is consistent there.

  Ultimate authority or not, some kind of immediate action was necessary. The buck stops at the president's desk, BUT in this case- whenever he admits the buck stops at his desk, the same sentence must include "...my lack of personal responsibility."

  I don't know why a few of you (a vocal few) don't get that. If anyone casually interested followed this, I am pretty sure they get that.

  I get the other side. I get that Cedars went through a labor of passion and gave birth to what he thought was a wonderful baby- The BBXB. I get that right after its birth, some people were symbolically saying that his baby was an "outing" monster that needed to be killed. It ain't easy to kill your baby. But I also get that it wasn't a literal killing, just a small setback.

  I get that there was no ill intent, even in the botched decision to delay and gather more information. I even get that a force-added person should, in most cases, have been able to lie their way out of this. But I get that it wouldn't always work, depending on the fader's situation and the elders involved.

  But c'mon people. Get the other side. There was clear inaction on Cedars' part and first he wants to imply that the email interchange didn't take place, then he wants everyone to blame faceless others. When that didn't work, he put a name to those others hoping to shift blame to them. I put this story in for a reason that should have been crystal clear after reading about personal responsibility and president being just a figurehead:
  
  "No, I could not have raped that girl. I was out of town. Besides, I am impotent and incapable of such an act. Besides, she isn't my type. And anyway, she had a blindfold on and could not have seen me. Also, that isn't even the girl I raped, so I am being tried for the wrong crime here, so I am innocent."

  Edited to add: I do "feel" (granted without proof) that BBXB would have been satisfied to just let one or two people be outed in order to gain a huge FB group. I "feel" that I am justified in that feeling based on what I have read on JWN from the president of BBXB. I "feel" that this type of feeling is what causes so much passion on this subject. I am confident that Cedars will deny that and has maybe even convinced himself that such an allegation is silly. That goes back to the excellent suggestion to read:

  
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  slimboyfat

  Edited to add: I do "feel" (granted without proof) that BBXB would have been satisfied to just let one or two people be outed in order to gain a huge FB group. I "feel" that I am justified in that feeling based on what I have read on JWN from the president of BBXB.

  Indeed OTWO. On page two of this thread Cedars said (emphasis mine):

  Three weeks later, once we could see plainly that the group wasn't as secure as we had been told it was, I and other board members pushed for it to be closed down no matter how many "members" this would involve losing.

  Membership numbers were still a consideration even after three weeks of warnings and complaints about the damage they were doing. Pretty pathetic.
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  talesin

  What some people are forgetting, or just not mentioning, is that Cedars had Lady Lee remove threads from JWN when this issue first came up. When the 'truth' came out, Lee resigned from this board publicly, without even telling Simon first, and made some rather untoward implications in her last post.

  That stinks of cover up. I, for one, have no trust in Cedars or that group, and never will.

  And problemaddict, before you start telling people how they should feel about this issue, maybe you should go back and read EVERYTHING. Did you know that? Huh? yeah, I thought not.

  t

  that's all I have to say,,,
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  cofty

  that's all I have to say,,,

  Really?
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  Oubliette

  I tried to make this point when this thread first started, but it seemed to be ignored, at least by some:

  I'm not trying to take sides here or add any fuel to the fire, but I'd like to remind everyone that ultimately it is the destructive teachings and policies of the WTBTS that are really to blame here.

  It is impossible to live an open and honest authentic life apart from the religion if ever one was once part of it. Actions that would be completely non-issues in the normal world become devastating in JW-land as well as the wilderness and badlands inhabited by faders, disfellowshipped people and disassociated ones.

  No doubt, we all need to very careful of our actions knowing how this cult is and how it makes people behave, but again: It is the WTBTS and the policies of their leadership that is ultimately responsible for these actions that destroy lifes.

  Please, let's not lose sight of that!
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  Las Malvinas son Argentinas

  I don't think he needs to personally apologise if he feels no personal culpability. It's quite a hollow feeling when you are on the receiving end of an apology that somehow seems forced or contrived. What is generally apparent is that he long ago felt that he need not say anything further (that was the official AAWA apology), and has been stewing every single time this subject has been brought up. However, I feel that those who might be implying that he owes public apologies are giving him a way out in that the further this drags on, the more silly the whole charade looks.

  I notice how he ducked back in after he got a second wind of posting bravado after Simon threw him a bone by sympathising with his position in AAWA by noting with the driest cyber-sarcasm, 'But once again, I apologise'. This hints at a glaring character flaw that is obvious when you look at a few of the toxic debates he got himself inextricably involved in. I am talking of course about the Patterson and Anonymous threads that he played a rather prominent role in. Notice how at the end of the 'Anonymous' thread, he utters what has to be one of the more pathetic exercises in self-pity on JWN when he says 'I was starting to think the unspoken topic was "Let's use Cedars as a punch bag!". Not to be outdone, on the 'Patterson' thread he finds his creativity in suggesting that "This is the perfect Cedars-bashing party!".

  My point is, it takes little to make him feel threatened and bullied, and this is of course not due to any real threats or abuse, but rather due to his own insecurities and inability to accept that others have the right to have their own opinions that might conflict with his. This feeling was likely multiplied when the AAWA debates began to turn against him. Seeing that he was vastly outnumbered this time, he fled without explanation. Now he reveals the reason why he fled after pointing the finger at and directing the FB blame at Bo: AAWA demanded that he not post on JWN! Anyone who knew and saw this man post has to realise what an unlikely story this is. I'm not saying that they didn't suggest that, but the truth of the matter is more likely that he couldn't handle the storm he fed into at the beginning anymore, and they didn't need to ask him twice about not posting. I think we can dump the whole 'apology' argument for brevity's sake. He's feeling abused now, and he has already used up the 'punch bag' and 'Cedars-bashing party' lines.
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  Band on the Run

  I will share info from corporate law that applies to nonprofits. There is usually an executive board of three to four members who can make emergency decisions until a full board meeting. Common sense rules apply. If a director or key person can stop harmful activity that will be undoable by the time of a full board meeting, that person should act. Said person can call his friends or allies and inform them of his action. Informing people is key.

  Nothing would get done in corporate America or the govt. if certain people did not have limited authorization to act. Of course, we were trained to not be actors in any sense. Life is full of lessons.

  Many people start groups with the best of intentions. Somehow the group moves away from their intentions or some toxic people take over. I personally witnessed a small group of ultra radical lesbians try to destroy NOW and almost succeeded. Sometimes you have to vote by leaving and informing. Snowden is a dramatic example.

  I had to vote with my feet or inform others of certain actions. It is not fun. Seeing your hard work subverted is agony. Outing people is the lowest. I blame the person who did the action plus anyone in power who knew or should have known. I have walked past pickets set up by closest friends. Fortunately, I made a remark and we all laughed.

  What is the statute of limitations here? It was very serious but when does time tones it down. The WT spies rejoice every time this happens. No one should assume power over their ability to stop actions. One rotten apple does ruin many. I made mistakes and will make mistakes. Aren't other people entitled to some mistakes?
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  rebel8

  jeremiah: 6- sst was forced to confront the truth of 1 and 2

  Um, you realize that was a false statement on your part, right?

  Once again: The guy was not dfd for being a member here or concealing that.

  He claims to have been dfd for having the Facebook group show up in his Facebook timeline. His defense was that he did not voluntarily join that Facebook group, a claim the elders did not accept.

  FACT: Elders not accepting very reasonable defenses, such as claims of innocence, is a very common thing in the cult.
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  UnConfused

  " FACT: Elders not accepting very reasonable defenses, such as claims of innocence, is a very common thing in the cult. "

  Not according to Marvin, their training prevents that.