by Terry 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
How about the Genesis account about the Cherubs with the swinging sword? First of all: how could there be a swordlike something if the sword was not invented at that time (according to Biblical history)? Adam and Eve shurely were not known with a weapon now where they?
The oldest sword-like weapons are found at Arslantepe , Turkey , and date to around 3300 BC (source: wikipedia)...
The writings that scholars more or less agree were by "Paul" are strangely attested to by the Duetero-Pauline writings, which are: Collosians, Ephesians, 2nd Thessalonians, and the pastoral letters, 1Tim, 2Tim, and Titus. Hebrews is almost certainly not by Paul also.
There would hardly be people so relatively close to the time of Paul writing as though they were he, if he did not exist.
The books of Luke and Acts have been shown to be unreliable, and so any picture of Paul we glean from them must be viewed as mainly fiction, certainly only hearsay at best, and of course, the stories were collected by Luke many years after the events, and contradict the words of the original "Paul" in a number of cases.
As Terry says, we are free to look at the writings of Paul, and those writing in his name, and make our own judgement, both the original Paul, and the later writers of the School of Paul have their own agenda, and write from the perspective of 1st century Jewish religious melt-down and chaos, trying to put some kind of order in place.
They did not succeed very well, the centuries of schism, warfare, murder and torture that have sprung form these dodgy, sometimes downright fraudulent writings , shows that all of them may have done better never to have put pen to vellum.
Terry... I have read and reread the "prayer" in Gethsemane but it says nothing about the contents of the prayer. If you are referring to the prayer in John 17 then you are wrong in that matter since it is part of the last supper and not part of the getsemane prayer (please correct me if I am wrong... I am only human :P).
I am however not saying you should not reconsider some aspects but some aspects are still true (at least from a writing point of view).
By the way... now that we are talking about "reconsidering:
I discovered today that there is NO mention of the transfiguration or mention of the sacrements in the Gospels of John! Now that is actually very strange, especially the first thing that is missing, because John was, according to the others, an eyewitness of the transfiguration. If something of that caliber happened in my time I would surely wrote that part down... but it nowhere to be found in the Gospel of John. Same with the sacrements... John only noted the talk of prayer of Christ.
DeWandelar: Terry... I have read and reread the "prayer" in Gethsemane but it says nothing about the contents of the prayer. If you are referring to the prayer in John 17 then you are wrong in that matter since it is part of the last supper and not part of the getsemane prayer (please correct me if I am wrong... I am only human :P).
The so-called Synoptic (i.e. these dudes don't have the same testimony) versions of the Garden Prayer vary.
Matthew 26:36-46 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” 40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” 42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” 43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!
Luke 22:39-46 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. 45 When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46 “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”
Mark 14:34-37 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.” 35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.
Who cares bro. JW's are phonies.
Matthew 26:36-46 ---- So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!
Luke 22:39-46 --- When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46 “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”
Mark 14:34-37 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.” 35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.
It's wierd that the things he is saying are diff from Gospel to Gospel, the attitude is different, what he is asking about, the immediate actions are diff. Yet I never paid attention to it or even cared to because the message was so lovely. This is why it is never good for a DUB to actually read the bible outside of the WATCHTOWER framework because things begin to get sticky.
Well... that they are not consistent does not mean that it is not true mind... people write stories and like everyone have a different view about how things happened. Besides... quoting someone after a couple of years results in unacurate tellings. It is not like they had notebooks with them and said to Jesus... wait Lord... I have to write that down now so I can accurately tell the others who will follow you later on.
Besides... it could be that they only got portions of the prayer and fell asleep after a couple of sentences... We have had the same experiences with our own prayers (when very tired) or when we are at a convention. I never make notes so I seldom remember but a actual phrase or two.
For me it is not inconsistent enough to wipe it away as bogus...
However... what does bother me is the fact that a couple of the most important things are NOT mentioned by John... now THAT is strange since he was seen as one of Jesus' favorites.
DeWandelaar, see that is the problem. We have HOLY TEXTS that are FROM GOD. Why should we have to add things or guess or interject "well maybe" etc...? If God wants us to know something in its totality why have 3 people write the same story and each one have bits the other doesn't? Then expect us to mush it all together. Why not just write one book that has every useful detail in it so there is no guesswork. Why does god want us to have to do guesswork and investigate. Honestly I think if the bible was the sole book good wanted all mankind to benefit from why not just write it out in stone on a mountain and make sure it was never harmed?
Why leave it on paper written by people that pushed and pulled to get some stuff there and other stuff removed. Why is the proper pronunciation of his name not preserved? So many questions and there will never be answers
It's wierd that the things he is saying are diff from Gospel to Gospel, the attitude is different, what he is asking about, the immediate actions are diff. Yet I never paid attention to it or even cared to because the message was so lovely. This is why it is never good for a DUB to actually read the bible outside of the WATCHTOWER framework because things begin to get sticky.
As Bart Ehrman explained in the video I attached, most Christians read the Bible by squishing all the differing accounts into one big one containing ALL the information.
You would not, in a court of law, be allowed to take witness testimony in that fashion and consider the squished amalgam as the true account.
Witness 1: The defendant walked up to me and point a gun and said, 'Give me all the money in the drawer."
Witness 2: I saw the defendant point to the bulge in his coat pocket as he warned the Teller, 'Don't make me pull my gun. I want all the 20's, now!"
Squished version: The defendant had a gun in his coat that was clearly a weapon of threat. He pulled it and demanded all the 20's in her drawer.
That may seem perfectly reasonable to you. But, the commission of a robbery without a weapon and a clear and present threat carries a different penalty!
What if the Teller is skewing the story for personal reasons?
@Terry - nice illustration. However most people just fall back on the "faith" aspect and just bypass logical reasoning. After all I forget the publication but it speaks of a time in the 1800's in which "higher criticism" became a new trend in which people condemned the bible or looked into the bible searching for errorss. They actually say that looking into the bible for errors is wrong??? I never fully grasped why that was. Now, thinking with a free mind outside of the borg it all makes sense.
Even in the last elders school I attended one of the most shocking statements made by the instructor was, "People walk around saying we are brainwashed... well we should be proud to be brainwashed! We are brainwashed with the detergent of Jehovah God!"
Everyone laughed and so did I. Later on as i thought about it - it was freaking pathetic.
