by CyrusThePersian 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
CyrusThePersian
The next thing I think I'll talk about is Paul's argument with Peter that Paul talks about in Galations.
mP:
Paul actually argues with Cyphas. They could be different people. Its especially stranget that a renamed Cyphas who becomes Peter is stilled called Cyphas by Paul.
There are strong reasons to believe both Peter and James existed. First, noncanonical gospels mention these men with great respect. They are key figures in every strand of Christianity. We only know Western Christianity. There is Middle East, Eastern European. North African, and Indian to name only a few.
I've read NT scholars bash the view that Jesus never existed. James, then Peter, were too important to not exist. St. Thomas gains a lot of credibility in India.
I know James and Peter never knocked on Paul's door with a surprise spy visit. Representatives from James and Peter, the Jerusalem contingent showed up and the people who learned Pauline Christianity from Paul were shocked by the likely eyewitness accounts of eye witnesses to Jesus the Human part. What is a light on the road to Damascus that no one else saw or voices that no one else heard compared to daily interaction with JC Superstar. People here keep thinking that the Middle East was full of country bumpkins. Travel was not as easy as today. Nevertheless, people did business in many cities on a routine basis. James and Peter may not have ordered the visits. A business person or tradesperson may have been in town on business and ran into a local Christian.
Latin was a common language. Huge segments of Europe spoke French for centuries. The current Latin/French is now English. It is not English because America is a wonderful country or b/c of our military clout. It is American because our most successful export is Hollywood films and TV shows. People are human. If you go to market or draw water, you learn things.
People in ancient times were sophisticated and very intelligent. All we have is some technology.
These facts are in Paul's letters. Perhaps not expressly but a long time before the Nag Hammadi and other finds, every scholar knew Paul was challenged by the Jerusalem brand and Gnostic brand. Paul is not writing theoretically. The people he cares about no longer believe his version. He writes to win them back. Sometimes he is too desparate for my taste. He almost grovels.
Confident people don't ever argue. People with power don't need to write on and on. He was emotionally involved. I don't know how to articulate it. I've read a lot of Paul and should stop coming here and read more Paul. The WT Paul never existed. If you read Paul's letter in one sitting, it is amazing. I do not read commentaries first. The text speaks for itself is the first step. Only after I sit and ponder the actual text, do I read scholarly material. No other denomination or scholar will ever do to me what the Witnesses did.
"Paul actually argues with Cyphas. They could be different people. Its especially stranget that a renamed Cyphas who becomes Peter is stilled called Cyphas by Paul."
Right you are! I was going to discuss that very point in my post. I'm writing it now.
BOTR:
There are strong reasons to believe both Peter and James existed. First, noncanonical gospels mention these men with great respect. They are key figures in every strand of Christianity. We only know Western Christianity. There is Middle East, Eastern European. North African, and Indian to name only a few.
mP:
I agree there is proof for James and Cephas not James and Peter. AS i have mentioned before its especially strange that a proud jew like Cephas or is it Simon would use a Greek name. THis same Cephas refused to eat, preach with Greeks and yet he adopts a Greek name. If he is targetting Jews, then adopting a Greek name when his Jewishone works just fine makes no sense. There is no advantage or sense in this strategy.
What proof is there for a Peter of Simon or Cyphas existing outside the Bible or other xian texts ? I find it very strange that one man has not one but three different names and is sometimes called by different names by different people. What are the chances that different groups knew him as P andother as S and another as C ? Why would he want to delute his authority by switching names like that ? The only people i have hard changing names like this are criminals on the run !
BOTR
We only know Western Christianity. There is Middle East, Eastern European. North African, and Indian to name only a few.
MP:
I will only comment on the Indian. There are no texts with Peter from India that i am aware of. I have heard of tradition claiming Thomas came to india but i think if we examine this we can this the link is extremely weak. Thomas means twin and that connection with an indian godman is the only real link. Nobody takes the jesus came to India for 50 years story seriously. The only way thse stories are true is if we realise the xian and indian traditions are basically retelling a similar myth in the same way many cultures retell a flood myth in some way because floods happen everywhere.
You have listed a lot of cultures but you will find they are basically the same. Some of the stories in the Nag Hamadi texts are hilarious, and the reason xians keep them hidden is because they know they are a joke. Im not arguing they dont mention these characters but given their clear fantasy we cant take the text serious.
BOTR
Nevertheless, people did business in many cities on a routine basis. James and Peter may not have ordered the visits.
mP:
Thats actually completely untrue. most people until recently basically lived and died in the same village or community they were born in. This only changed with the introduction of the train before that travelling a few kms was a real effort because when your poor you have to walk. Carrying food or other essentials is problematic. There are no trains and cars. Ships and boats exist but many places are not near water and what happens when you dont want to follow that river or there is no water linking the path between your current location and the next.
This stationary lifestyle is part of the reason there were many many languages in the past. Different communities remained isolated. As the world unites with communications and travel this isolation is removed and languages and cultures die or merge.
Ask any old person about the past or your ancestors. If they ever travelled from Europe to America or similar, thats probably the only big trip they ever made. They also probably never ever saw their hoomeland or relatives ever again
BOTR
Latin was a common language. Huge segments of Europe spoke French for centuries. The current Latin/French is now English.
mP:
Thts completely wrong. the lingua franca of the Roman world was Greek. Tahts why the NT was written in Greek because it was the most widespread language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire
Koine Greek had become a shared language around the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor as a consequence of the conquests of Alexander the Great . [6] The "linguistic frontier" dividing the Latin West and the Greek East passed through the Balkan peninsula . [7] Educated Romans, particularly those of the ruling elite, studied and often achieved a high degree of fluency in Greek, which was useful for diplomatic communications in the East even beyond the borders of the Empire. The international use of Greek was one condition that enabled the spread of Christianity , as indicated for example by the choice of Greek as the language of the Epistles of Paul [8] and its use for the ecumenical councils of the Christian Roman Empire. With the dissolution of the Empire in the West, Greek became the dominant language of the Eastern Roman Empire , later known as the Byzantine Empire .
BOTR
Huge segments of Europe spoke French for centuries.
mP:
Thts not true, French was the langauge of the elites and diplomacy, the common person had no need to speak French . It wasnt until recent times that most of France actually spoke french. In Napoleons time barely 20% of his troops spoke French. In the past wehn people were less travelled and more isolated there were more separate langauges. If you never go to teh french part of France theres no need to learn french.
Napoleon didnt even know French whil ehe lived in Corsica because French wasnt mainstream as you claim.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/napoleon-educating-a-genius.html
While at Autun, Napoleon had to learn French; as of yet, the future Emperor of the French could hardly speak the language. The effort did not go well. Napoleon found memorizing difficult, and his natural inclination to hurry did not do him well in the study of language.
This has of course changed but back then not everyone even in France spoke French.
BOTR
Confident people don't ever argue. People with power don't need to write on and on. He was emotionally involved. I don't know how to articulate it.
mP:
This means nothing. Many people are confident they saw the virgin mary, does anyone serious believe them ?
BOTR
People in ancient times were sophisticated and very intelligent. All we have is some technology.
mp:
That doesnt change they had limited means. Because they had no education in our sense of the word, they often believed in demons and sickness being caused by these demons which we know is nonsense. One cannot learn or explore when ons is busy working for a crust. There were no libraries, families never books and there certainly no schools. Those opportunities only belonged to the very rich.
