What constitutes 'proof' on JWN?

by besty 81 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  snare&racket

  Very few things in life are proven or can be considered true.

  All we can do is amass as much data as possible and use it to edge our understanding towards what is likely to be true based on probability.

  Gut instinct and anecdotal evidence is what got us all in a cult. 'Your gut' is just your brain making a desicion based on the information you have at hand. The better the data you have, the better your descision.

  its ironic that a religious education leads to an assumption so powerful and yet so completely upside down, anecdotal evidence, opinion, gut feelings are the LEAST respected forms of evidence and proof. They are considered valueless in seeking scientific enlightenment. Anything that is observable can use the scientific method, so it is relevant to many areas of life.

  Many of us here are fans of science and reason and we are often perceived as always angry or frustrated. Every evolution, religious etc conversation here often ends with a denial of evidence in exchange for a feeling or personal experience. That is fine if you want to judge that experience or feeling with more value than the rest of the world, but you can't attack us for feeling it isn't of any use to anybody but yourself.

  Scientific method has been in use for only 150 years or so, no more gut feelings, no more anecdotal evidence.... Look where it has got us! It works! It is working....

  Give me GPS over 'I think its that way..' Every day of the week! That analogy applies whether we are talking out GPS or biblical history or the age of the universe.

  Snare x

  P.s. also don't believe a word I or anyone else says, even 'scientific proof'... Check it for yourself. I mean be reasonable, if you want to argue the value of pi with a mathematician or question WHY 2+2 has to equal 4, then prepare for lots of headaches and not much progress. However the world is full of people spending their lives seeking evidence to develop what we believe to be true... If you have a differing belief to someone else now, be it evolution or climate change, we now live in a world where you can see and read why peoole feel differently..... Then you can decide for yourself. Gone are the days where its decided on a feeling or based on what one person saw or because an authority figure told you that, that is just the way it is.... Like not having a beard as a jw lol
• 

  *lost*

  phew ............ thank God, I thought for a moment someone was gonna be having a rant at me,

  cos I mentioned a Dr who had the opinion of proof of noah's flood. so happy now, have had a very, very bad day.

  Just been screwed over by a

  Lying cheating, devious cunning, sly despicable, money grabbing, stuck up, pompous, biggest, bitch, that ever lived solicitor and her

  equally charming client, my soon to be divorced ex-hubby. SCUM!

  Don't talk to me about proof, lmao, the freaking charade I have been tied up in.

  The more words a person uses,

  and the more sickly the syrup, usually tell's me who is jumped up their ***** and think they are oh so wonderful,

  They present a 'fake' personality (kinda like jw's), sends my alarm bells flying, the more intelligent a person tries to make themself sound, the wider I pass them by.

  Oh, and braggers, god, I can't stand braggers, think they are soooo great.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  If someone rambles on with highfalutin words and likes to take a contrary position, I think it doesn't need proof to know they are being a horse's ass.

  Some are mixing hypotheticals with a real situation here, acting as if the people involved do not have enough experience with the matter to really know the truth of the matter. The truth is that many right here have experience enough that could be surpassing even the "relentless training" of elders.

  Usually, I just read as far as the clearly ridiculous statements from the rambler and then I can dismiss the rest of their thoughts on the matter.
• 

  JeffT

  Marvin. Never have I known anyone be able to use so many words while saying so little.

  I thought you had children. My nine year old granddaughter can outtalk most politicians.
• 

  Simon

  Yeah, girls babble non stop. We have teen boys ... They mostly just grunt if you cross their eye / xbox game sight line.
• 

  Farkel

  Marvin Shimler said much of what I would say and he said it first.

  Logic is king, but it is not always possible to reach a decision with it. Sometimes, it is not even needed.

  Res ipsa liquitur is one example. "The sun is hot" illustrates res ipsa liquitur. No arguments needed.

  Inductive reasoning is another. There are many occasions when an almost perfect argument can be made with inductive reasoning when pure logic cannot be used.

  The burden of proof is always upon the one making the claim or assertion. No one needs to disprove an assertion which is made without any proof. Only a fool would respond to something as stupid as this: "The Bible is the word of God. Prove me wrong." That is logically as absurd as saying, "Aliens came to my bed last night and played with my pee-pee. Prove me wrong."

  BTW, what constitutes "proof" on JWN is what constitutes "proof" in any environment where people are honestly seeking it, and not pretending to seek it.

  Farkel
• 

  ohiocowboy

  "proof" in any environment where people are honestly seeking it, and not pretending to seek it

  Yes, honestly seeking is the key. You can show a person 100% undeniable proof of something, but unless they are like you said "honestly seeking," honest with one's self, and open to hearing the truth (no matter how much it may hurt or compromise one's previous belief in a matter) it unfortunately just won't sink in with some people.
• 

  Farkel

  Also, Marvin Shillmer talked about a "sound argument." It is important to know that a perfectly logical argument may not be a sound one. That is the beauty of science. They must first make a logical argument and if logical, then go on to make sure it is sound.

  Here is an example of a syllogism which is logical, but not at all sound:

  All fish are mice.

  Flounder are fish.

  Therefore, flounder are mice.

  Logical? Yes. Sound? No.

  Here is another simple example that I used to use as a dub (being taught this by my religious master high-school drop-outs in Brooklyn):

  "The fact that the Bible is so old and yet is still being printed is good evidence that it is the Word of God(tm)."

  So the basic argument is this:

  "Old books still being printed is good evidence that it is the Word of God."

  "The Odyssey is old and still being printed."

  "Therefore, it is good evidence the Obyssey/Tao de Ching/Bhagavad Gita/Beowulf/Little Orphan Annie is the Word of God."

  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  Farkel

  Farkel
• 

  Perry

  premise is king
• 

  UnConfused

  " Marvin. Never have I known anyone be able to use so many words while saying so little. "

  I have all the proof I need to believe this.