wallievase,
Greetings. Like Ding I've sent you a PM. Follow his directions, esp. the part about maybe having to reclick after you get into the mailbox.
my first post and some questions
by wallievase 54 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
cantleave
Welcome - enjoy the ride.
-
OnTheWayOut
While I hate to bother these days with JW doctrinal issues, wizzstick makes a good point on page 2 here.
The Governing Body was given clear evidence that their all-important date of 607BCE was wrong. In order to remain captives of the concept that JW teachings are right, they would have had to completely shut out even looking into the possibility that they were wrong. In order to come around to other doctrinal changes today like "overlapping generation" and "only the GB are the FDS" they would have to start from the assumption that all misunderstandings were important guidance toward truth from Jehovah.
I can't make all that fit into my thoughts on what would make them good people who were misguided. It would make me believe that as much as I was duped, getting to the Governing Body causes one to be ultra-duped as if it were a great hypnotism. The best I can do is a bit of dualism- they are duped into thinking Watchtower is a channel to God, but that they are entrusted with special knowledge of the flaws within the doctrine and are convinced that the corporation must survive by deceiving the members and withholding that special knowledge. That would be kind of like serving Hitler knowing something is wrong, but sure that it is for the greater good to perpetuate those wrongs.
Ray Franz figured it out and I would expect other GB members to defect if this were the case.
-
Frazzled UBM
Hi Wallievase
As an atheist whose postion has hardened due to my exposure to the WBTS I don't have a problem with JWs who on an informed basis switch to a less coercive form of Christianity - I am a strong believer in freedom of belief. I am a bit concerned though with your implied suggestion that XJWs shold not exercise their freedom of beilief to choose not to believe in God or the Bible. Given the way the WBTS is so effective at utilizing the Bible and the God portrayed in the Bible to manipulate the sheep by implanting fears into them and then saying 'we are the only ones who can protact you from your fears' I can understand why XJWs woud be skeptical of the Bible and the God portrayed in the Bible.
As for the GB, I do not share your view that they are blameless. I agree they are themselves victims of a self-perpetuating system and are also subject to the same delusions as your common and garden JW but they hold positions of power, in this case considerable power, in an oppressive authoritarian regime which damages peoples lives and they benefit in terms of status and self- esteem (what could feel more special than being God's mouthpiece) so they have an obligation to exercise that power wisely and cokpassionately and so they could change or soften the policies and practices of the organisation but instead they seem to becoming even more oppressive - labelling apostates as mentally ill and ramping up the pressure on the membership to shun. They are under pressure as they find it increasingly difficult to get recrutis int eh West and see their finances dwindling and their response is to tighten the screws and pump out disingenuous mumbo jumbo to keep the faithful in a continuing state of ignorance and obedience. If they were genuinely good honourable brave people with integrity they would realize how disingenous the propaganda is how oppressive the judic ial practices and have a 'Crisis of Conscience' and either try to change those things or leave.
Still I respect your views and encourage you to keep posting.
Frazzled
-
Narcissistic Supply
Frazzled.
Fear and guilt. A waste of time. A wasted emotion. Wasted energy.
It doesn't matter if the WT induced it or who induced it. It's crap.
In the book "The four agreements." (don Miguel Ruiz) The author talks about NEVER EVER taking anything personal. Even if somebody got a gun and shot you in the head. Even at that extreme. It's not about you. It's about the projection of the other person.
Best,
-
flipper
WALLIEVASE- Welcome to the board. Nice to have you here. Your views concerning those of us who exit the Witness organization are understandable - especially considering the information you've been given and had access to from the WT Society.
There are many of us who do NOT know all the answers and are humble enough to admit it and recognize that fact of life. I respect your right, or anybody else's right for that matter to pursue all things religious if you or they so desire. It's the freedom to CHOOSE the option to be religious or not that CHANGES after you leave Jehovah's Witnesses. Ask yourself this : As a Jehovah's Witness do you have the freedom or locus of control in your own life right now to decide if you agree with the WT Society or not , and open up to your wife or other Witnesses about it ; without suffering loss or suffering being shunned, ostracized, or expelled from your JW friends and family ? If your answer is " no " then you'll start to be on the road to understanding the reasons some of us do not pursue organized religion or why many of us just fade away without getting DFed to accomodate still having a semblance of a relationship with our JW family.
Think about it for a minute : Which takes more courage ? To continue staying in an organization that lies to us, supports child molesters by moving them around to congregations without imprisonment or justice by police authorities , kills children and others by refusing blood transfusions, forbids young adults from any higher education in colleges or university's so as to limit their access to information so WT can still control their minds and they don't learn anything else ? OR - To take a chance and be honest and courageously extricate ourselves and leave from an organization that is dishonestly misleading 7 million people so it can " grow " and eat up more real estate and expand itself with volunteer labor and donated funds from middle and lower classed Witnesses who are barely surviving financially to make a living in this " system of things " ? Personally I chose the 2nd option so I can live with myself. Some of my JW family respects my inactive/fading status of 10 years- some do not respect it- but there is a price to be paid for every decision we make in life and at the end of the day only you, me, and others can look in the mirror and tell ourselves if we can accept and live with the decisions we make. I sleep very well at night and I'm at peace with myself. And that my friend is a gift in itself and what freedom of mind is all about.
As for the Governing Body not " being bad people " - you may be correct about some of them, but not all. There were men on the Governing Body in years past who abused young Bethelites in a sexual way and instead of being disfellowshipped - were " transferred " to other assignments in the deep south in the United States. What was the reason for this happening ? To protect more young victims ? No. To help the GB brother to chill out and get more " spiritual " ? No. It was done so as to PRESERVE the alleged " sanctity " of the WT Society organzations " reputation " in order to squelch any rumors or talk that would get around exposing what conduct happened behind the scenes in order for the WT Society to keep giving out a PERCEIVED image of respectability. You as a Jehovah's Witness have not been made aware of half or two thirds of the unethical or criminal activity done on the part of the WT leaders. I would encourage you to do some deep, serious, soul searching research in order to get the complete, full picture of the history of this 139 year old organization called the WT Bible and Tract Society. It's not apretty picture, believe me. But don't believe me- do your OWN research on it- and you may find that the leaders of this organization have not and are not as innocent as yu may believe.
I wish you nothing but the best and peace and happiness and freedom of mind in your journey. And for your family as well. We are here if you'd ever like to talk as a support system. Take care
-
DATA-DOG
If you really believe the Bible is God's word, then the GB are either the "evil slave" or the slave who did not understand the Master's will. There is no other choice available, IMO. Why do I say that? Just look at the evidence. Revisionist history is everywhere, and Jesus said that there is no lie in truth. Also the relatively new feature " From our Archives " is damning. They would have been better off NEVER including that feature. Why? It proves that the FDS/GB, ( according to the nu-lite ) those anointed DIRECTLY INVOLVED in dispensing spiritual food, know EXACTLY what is in the archives!
So the question is whether or not it's all intentional. For me, if the GB was not contantly asking for money, ( they just made $800 MILLION ) were not spouting hate-speech, ( Apostate talk ), did not forbid studying Hebrew and Greek or independent Bible study, did not constantly misquote or fail to quote sources ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/253299/1/ANOTHER-DISHONEST-QUOTE-FROM-CHRISTS-BROTHERS) and did not teach that to be an "apostate" you need only to believe differently than the current GB sanctioned WT article, I would be more inclined to believe that they were the slave who did not understand. It's the operation of error at work.
-
Frazzled UBM
Hi Narcisistic Supply - first of all thanks for your interesting albeit a bit lengthy post about life cycles and how JWs are impacted in response to my question about mortality;
second - your theory of narcisistic use and supply provides some insight into the JW phenomenom but I don't think it is a complete answer - for example I believe fear is the biggest motivator for my wife's mental incarceration and is the most pevasive tool used by the WBTS.
Third - your post here - are you suggeting that am I taking it personally by saying the GB is accountable? Certainly I have a strong sense of injustice about what has happened to her and her family and to so many others like all of you who post here. Am I feel it is better to blame the GB than blame my wife, her family, her JW friends, the elders etc. Accountability should go to the top.
I am in the business of holding people accountable for doing bad things (I am a sort of prosecutor) and so applying the principles I would usually apply I don't think I woud have too many problems prosecuting them for the crime of causing psychological damage or imparing people's critical thinking and abilty to reach their potential or wrecking relationships and causing anguish, if such crimes existed. They would certainly have the requisite mens rea (mental element) on the basis tht their acts were either deliberate or reckless.
Or maybe I am still too new to this and my anger is too palpable and in time I will reach a more karmic state and simply not care about the GB - it will be nice if I can achieve it but a long way from where I am now.
frazzled
-
Frazzled UBM
Narcissistic Supply - to put it another way - would you have held the Soviet Politburo responsible for sending political prisoners to Gulags? Just asking.
Frazzled
-
jgnat
I have issues with people who go from being a witness to losing all faith in god or the bible which seems to be the case with some members of this site. I just don't think you can let any religion change how you view god or the bible.
Just to give you a sense of the wide variety of experiences here, I'm as the WTS classes me, an "unbelieving mate", married to a Witness. I attend church regularly. Time with my husband working out why he is wrong, and debating here on this board, has changed my views of the bible, the afterlife and God. I question everything now. I feel I am in a better place, more real, more grounded.
Second-I don't feel the GB are bad people, I think most witnesses including them are misguided by something that has been drilled into their heads since they were little and are actually sincere people.
Once in a position of power, surely they must see the flaws. Problem is, they've invested their whole lives. To admit to that scope of error is devastating. Only the bravest do. There is a similar leadership, the World Wide Church of God, that did wake up to their error, and made the required changes. It devastated their membership. But it had to be done.
Please reply, let me know what you think and what my next course of action should be as I think I'm too afraid to leave because of the effects on my wife, family friends, etc.
I'm gently suggesting that you are a bit indoctrinated still. You are trying to find direction in a world where everything is possible. Your course of action and ambitions are your own, now, not prescribed. As others have noted, take your time and make up your own plan. Here's what one man did: