Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kepler
    kepler

    mP,

    Just for the record, several of your replies were actually in response to things written by "Cold Steel".

    Your last remark is quite interesting. Pharisee and Farsi are not necessarily coincidentally similar names. I've tried looking into this myself, but did not come up with anything. Very few sources will commit to saying that any ancient Hebrew beliefs came from anywhere beside their scriptures. As an assumption going in, Persians at the time of Cyrus were going over to Zoroastrianism in droves. I don't think Cyrus made his declarations of return in Azura Mazda's name, but Darius the First swore his testimonies in that manner. But if one accepts Zoroastrianism, one also is accepting more duality in the cosmos than is revealed in the Penteteuch or perhaps the whole OT: demons or devils. On the other hand, Hades is a Greek term. Combine with demons and you have "hell".

    Regarding the veracity of Josephus, I find this an interesting anecdote. In chapter 7, a few pages after the description of the three "parties" and their beliefs, Josephus continues to describe reasons for the coming war. One was an increase in banditry; another was roving "zealots" who spread new beliefs and had large followings. At about 40 AD there was one led by an "Egyptian" which camped out with supposedly "30,000" followers on the Mount of Olives before Roman guards were called in to disperse them. In Acts 21:38, Paul was mistaken for this man, but his numbers of followers were marked ( more reasonably?) at 4000. A number of crowds and casualty lists recorded by Josephus sound similarly off by a magnitude or two. But there are differences in marking an event such as armies clashing that day and taking a tabulation of the size of the forces arrayed and the numbers fallen. Seldom have ancient historians underestimated these figures.

    Cold Steel,

    Quoting:

    "Your best bet for ascertaining what the ancient Christians believed about the afterlife can perhaps be found with more accuracy through Christian writings which once were considered scriptural by some Christian sects, but not others. Relying on Josephus’ explanation of what the Jews, which were in a high state of apostasy, believed most likely is not pertinent to what the Christians believed."

    I am aware of a number of indications of what ancient and present day Christians believed and believe about the after life. There are indications from the epistles that those anticipating Christ's return did not think they needed to resurrect because the return was so imminent. And by the time Revelations was written and read, those beliefs morphed further with a New Jerusalem descending. Yet all the same, if John of Patmos was writing at the same time as Josephus was writing, Josephus seems unaware of these beliefs, though he provides great detail about what happened to the Old Jerusalem.

    I should also add that the origin of a eternal life in a restored paradise Earth still sounds strange to me considering other direct Gospel quotes such as John 18:36 ( "My kingdom is not of this world") and Luke 23:38 ( "This day you will be with me in paradise").

    What is difficult to ascertain though, is high to evaluate a "high state of apostasy" among a people who we have yet to determine what their beliefs were or should have been, whether Christians or Jews. As you say later with the incident in Mark chapter 12, we are relying on Josephus for a notion of Sadducee beliefs. Mark has not been written yet, but the events are unrolling. If the Sadducees were trying to entrap Christ about his teachings, then they must have heard about them somewhere else. As a matter of fact, from what we have related in Mark about the resurrection, the story ends rather abruptly for our purposes.

    You examined some other church writers, but I am afraid that I will have to look at and reply to those discussions later.

    Thank you both for your consideration of these matters.

    Kepler

  • mP
    mP

    Kepler:

    Very few sources will commit to saying that any ancient Hebrew beliefs came from anywhere beside their scriptures.

    mP:

    Thats complete untrue. There are many books with go into depth and compare jewish beliefs with those of their neighbours. Practically every story in the OT has a parallel in an older neighbour's tradition. A quick look at the big stories are all copies, namely Moses, Noah.

    Im reading a book by Gary Greenberg where he shows every story starting at Genesis is a copy. Jacob and the ladder to heaven, the twelve tribes, Isaac and the link Osiris, Samson. Judaism is anything but unique. Just look at their names for God they are copies. Their writing is a copy, calendar, everything is a copy.

  • mP
    mP

    kepler:

    On the other hand, Hades is a Greek term. Combine with demons and you have "hell".

    mP:

    ??? i have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion.

  • mP
    mP

    kepler:

    Relying on Josephus’ explanation of what the Jews, which were in a high state of apostasy, believed most likely is not pertinent to what the Christians believed.

    mP:

    Do you have any proof for early xianity in the first century ? its even harder to find any archeology that is really xian. Sure there are a few symbols of donkeys and crosses but that hardly tells us they were comparable to modern xians. Rather thety were closer to the pagans. Over time they evolved into what we have today.

    Read up about Justin Martyr who wrote many apologies including one where he admits xians worship the sun just like they do.

    Just look at xmas, how could it be adopted if the dating and belief or association with the sun was so offensive to xians. its far easier to appreciate that it was not any different. I mean if xians today were told to celebrate some day an it was the birthday or Zeus, would it fly ? Of course not, it can only work if xians already acknowledge Zeus as being another form of their own god. The early church fathers admit this.

  • mP
    mP

    kepler:

    John, in the book of Revelation, also encounters an angel whose brightness and glory are so intense that John falls on his face to worship him

    mP:

    John is talking about the sun. Jehovah is the sun, Jesus is also the sun. If you re-read the text where Jesus is spoken of in supernatural termns and substitute sun for jesus it makes perfect sense. The sun comes in clouds, the sun is the light of the world, it dies and is resurrected every spring for us, it gives us life, it walks on water (its shadow) etc.

  • mP
    mP

    kepler

    Regarding the veracity of Josephus, I find this an interesting anecdote. In chapter 7, a few pages after the description of the three "parties" and their beliefs, Josephus continues to describe reasons for the coming war. One was an increase in banditry; another was roving "zealots" who spread new beliefs and had large followings. At about 40 AD there was one led by an "Egyptian" which camped out with supposedly "30,000" followers on the Mount of Olives before Roman guards were called in to disperse them. In Acts 21:38, Paul was mistaken for this man, but his numbers of followers were marked ( more reasonably?) at 4000. A number of crowds and casualty lists recorded by Josephus sound similarly off by a magnitude or two. But there are differences in marking an event such as armies clashing that day and taking a tabulation of the size of the forces arrayed and the numbers fallen. Seldom have ancient historians underestimated these figures.

    mP:

    Mark as you have noted is writing about the destruction of Jerusalem. The evil jews are the rebels who want to fight, die, and kill in their quest to liberate judea. Notice Jesus encourages them to lay down their weapons, pay their taxes and be good slaves. Intersting the leaders of two of those groups were called John (the favourite apostle), Simon ( the primary apostle). Judas iscariot is a play on one of those rebel groups , Sicari. etc. John and his brother are called sons of thunder, another refernce to one of the rebel groups. there are plenty more in the gospels.

  • kepler
    kepler

    mP,

    Again, in your responses you are attributing to me several things which were said by someone else: Cold Steel.

    Overall, I'd say that you are raising interesting points. But many are just as much off the cuff as some of my own generalizations I am using to illustrate a point of view, not necessarily a closed case. A closed case needs supporting evidence.

    Yes, there are comparisons of other middle eastern belief systems with those of the ancient Jews. We've just made some comparisons with Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultures. If Judea is a passive absorber, then score afterlife and one God from the Egypt; score for a lack of an afterlife and a disc world surrounded by water cosmology for Mesopotamia. Yet the coinciding features in Noah's flood in Genesis and that in Gilgamesh are much less detailed than those say of the text of Mark and Matthew. And there is always the possibility of an idea originating independently in the culture we are assuming is borrowing from its neighbors. After all, Noah is a very different personality than Gilgamesh. As a result, it is both difficult to demonstrate the cross-over from one culture to another - and to get a scholar to commit himself to such an idea in publications, especially with peer reviews. . Yes, there was a great flood in both stories - but otherwise...?

    However, starting with the data point that Josephus identifies three belief systems about immortality among his countrymen and then we compare widespread Christian beliefs supposedly derived from these... Maybe it is worth examining the details here.

  • mP
    mP

    Kepler

    If Judea is a passive absorber, then score afterlife and one God from the Egypt;

    mP:

    Just look at judaism customs and temples. They are straight copies of their neighbours. The architecture of the temple was a copy of other temples. The number of columns, the artwork within, cherubims and other magical creatures. Their language, alphabet or writing system, numbering, calendars and more are copies.

    Kepler:

    Yet the coinciding features in Noah's flood in Genesis and that in Gilgamesh

    mP:

    While N is a copy of Gilgamesh it is also a copy of other stories with other additions and edits. If you look at those stories you will just how much is copied, The problem is even the numbers and other details which we dont seee as significant are important. The names of N's sons for example are variations of other mythic characters. To us they are just names but to the ancients it would be evident that the bible account is a hebrew copy of another local story.

    I think its not IF judea was a passive absorber, just the examples that i give show it was. I think the problem is to prove that it WAS NOT. If we ignore the religious aspect, everything else is very much similar to neighbours, why should religion be any different ?

  • mP
    mP

    Kepler:

    However, starting with the data point that Josephus identifies three belief systems about immortality among his countrymen and then we compare widespread Christian beliefs supposedly derived from these... Maybe it is worth examining the details here.

    mP:

    Josephus also tells us that the temple had a zodiac wheel, and that the 12 tribes never existed and are equivalent to the zodiac as well. I agree there was never one uniting jewish religion, they too had variations each with their own identities. Each of these religions copied ideas from their neighbours. After the exile in Babylon, zoroastrian ideas were blended into judaism. Everybody claims the bible is against astrology, but J tells us that is simply untrue and the entire religion is a variation on astrotheology.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Job 19:25-26 sounds like belief in a bodily resurrection: "I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; 27 I myself will see him with my own eyes-- I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" (NIV)

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