If one of the meanings of the name Lucifer, is Morning Star, Can someone please explain to me the last line in Revelation 22:16?
Question regarding Lucifer
by truthhurts13 15 Replies latest watchtower bible
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transhuman68
Do you lie awake at night worrying about verses like Revelation 22:16?
The answer to your sleepless nights is found in Job 38:7...
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transhuman68
Oh LOL, I've killed another thread!
It is an interesting verse, although not controversial. 'Morning star'seems to be a term that can be applied to any imaginary inhabitant of heaven, though it does raise the question of the role of the planets (Venus) in ancient religion...
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Cold Steel
This is something that comes up every now and again and it's an excellent question.
LDS scholar Ben McGuire explains:
I am going to start off by saying that most of what appears on the Web link which you forwarded is nonsense. They give largely erroneous responses. While the Hebrew text is accurately noted, the quality of information goes downhill from there. Let me point out the major error, and then we can discuss the real meaning of the passage in Isaiah.
Jerome translates it as Lucifer in his Latin text–this, your article claims is the starting point for the connection between Lucifer and Satan.
Actually, Lucifer is first mentioned (under that name) in the writings of Origen (end of the second century) some two hundred years before Jerome puts it into his Latin text. Tertullian and others of the early fathers of the church also discuss Lucifer, so the connection between Lucifer and Satan was established some time prior to the end of the second century. Before the Latin text becomes widespread, however, the name Lucifer had a much more specific meaning. It was the name of Satan prior to his fall from glory. Origen explains that this is because prior to his fall, he was a being of light and thus it was an appropriate description of him. After his fall, Origen continues, he was no longer a being of light and became known as Satan.
The second point is that the scholarly community almost universally rejects the being identified as helel ben shahar in Isaiah 14 as being the king of Babylon directly. There is a figure in contemporary Canaanite religion which resembles Helel in Isaiah 14. That figure is ‘Athtar. At one point in Canaanite myth, ‘Athtar attempts to sit in the throne of Ba’al, the king of the gods. He fails in his attempt, and instead descends to the earth to rule there. ‘Athtar is known in southern Arabian inscriptions as Venus, or the Day Star. More than this though, is the account in Isaiah. The “stars of God” is a reference to the divine assembly–all of the divinities of heaven. The mount of the congregation in the sides of the north (in the original Hebrew) is equivalent to Canaanite phrases describing the dwelling place of Ba’al. So, in effect, we have in Isaiah a description of a divinity who wants to seize the throne of Ba’al and rule the heavens. Of course there are differences as well as similarities, but I find this argument to be fairly convincing myself.
While the Web-site article you reference tends to look at the literal meaning of the words, instead of examining them as names, it completely loses the rest of the context of the narrative. There is no basis in Isaiah’s charges as they would apply to the Babylonian king. It is primarily on the similarities between the Isaiah text, and text covering the Ba’al/’Athtar myth that this connection is drawn. (For bibliographic references and a description of the related scholarly arguments I recommend this article (the most recent on the subject that I am aware of): “The Mythological Provenance of Isa. XIV 12-15: A Reconsideration of the Ugaritic Material” by Michael S. Heiser, in Vetus Testamentum, 51/3 [2001], p. 354-369).
At the same time, this concept is, interestingly enough, seen in the New Testament. Jesus claims that he saw Satan “fall like lightning from heaven” and in John and Paul we find Satan described as the “God of this world.” It was these references (among others) that led the early fathers of the Christian church to conclude that Helel in Isaiah 14 was Lucifer and also Satan. The similarities between their beliefs, and what they saw in the Old Testament texts came together to form a lasting opinion. And when the Latin text named the being in Isaiah 14 as Lucifer, that tradition has been followed ever since.
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garyneal
I had read somewhere that Lucifer referred to the actual morning star that was closest to the horizon. It depicted that star (due to it closeness to the horizon) as being the fallen star and that is how it depicted Satan, as a fallen star or sorts. Of course, I also heard that that account also referred to a king (not sure which king). The best person I could think of to elaborate on this is Leolia.
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mP
Lucifer means morning star, which as you might not know appears before and after the sun comes forth in all its glory. In case you didnt know jesus is the Sun. basically the scripture is saying something like dont be fooled by the fake or false sun wait for the real one to appear in all its glory.
there are many scriptures that back this up. The bible is simply astrotheology, where nature is worshipped and given silly stories. All cultures in the ancient world did it.
If you read any of the supernatural lines about jesus and replace jesus with sun the sentence reads perfectly. The sun walks on water, it is the light of thew orld, it comes in the clouds, its in heaven, it dies and is resurrected every spring (sorry easter sorry passover ). You can easily see this in the bible with its constant use of 7 and 12, whcih are of course references to the heavenly bodies (planets, sun and moon) and 12 for the months. the temple in jeruslame is a copy of other solar temples. It points east just like all other ones. etc
if you want more scriptures showing this to be true ask here.
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Cold Steel
mP: there are many scriptures that back this up. The bible is simply astrotheology, where nature is worshipped and given silly stories. All cultures in the ancient world did it.
And where do you find this?
If the Bible is “simply astrotheology,” what about the complexities and wisdom in its law? In a land full of ignorance, evil and gross wickedness, including sexual depravities and bloodshed, how is it that a religion emerges based on righteousness, honesty, integrity, virtue, kindness, justice, mercy and sophistication? It just popped out of a desert culture and, in the case of the Israelites under the thumb of the Egyptians, it blossomed forth from an uncouth, uneducated, servantile people? I’d find that highly unlikely.
This foundation of justice, mercy and righteousness wasn’t just a flash in the pan, either. It is found in the writings of Hebrew prophets throughout the generations. My point is that desert rats don’t just produce ideas and concepts that rival and even surpass the writings of the greatest of Greek philosophers. I don’t see it just popping out of nothing. Hebrew law influenced other great laws, including those of freedom found in Western Roman Law, the views of individual rights held sacred by the Greeks and Anglo-Saxons. So blow it off on “astrotheology” (whatever that is); but it doesn’t explain the consistency in the law emanating, allegedly, from the Hebrew deity Yahweh.
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hamsterbait
Cold Steel -
The Israelites were in Egypt for nearly 500 years. The Egyptians were very noble sophisticated just and merciful. That's where the Israelites got these values. Just like they stole Babylonian Myths and made them their own.
Read about Egypt. Parts of Proverbs are just lifted from Egyptian sacred texts. Even the idea of a day of rest was Egyptian. Resurrection was an Egyptian concept long before Moses compiled (stole) the writings he and others used.
I find it most amusing that you point to the Jewish Law as soo wonderful. The rest of the civilised world worked out for themselves that lying, murder, cheating, stealing, adultery and covetousness were evil, for centuries - yet the Hebrews needed God to tell them, in 1513 BC!! And of course there is no Egyptian Law that forces a rape victim to marry her attacker as long as her father is given money.
YHWH appears to be a homicidal psychopath if Joshua, Judges and parts of the Pentateuch are true. Genocide on a scale that makes Hitler look like St Francis of Assisi. (Do a body count from the scriptures)
HB
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transhuman68
LOL, the Israelites were never in Egypt. This is the problem with the Bible- it is nearly all myth. If it had been written when it claims it was, by the people who claim to have written it, then it would be a truly remarkable document- but it wasn't and isn't. Much of it was written in Babylon around the time of the exile, which is where the Creation & Flood stories come from- they are adapted Babylonian myths. Even now, the Bible has a special place in our western culture- but only for those who don't look at it too closely.
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mP
mP: there are many scriptures that back this up. The bible is simply astrotheology, where nature is worshipped and given silly stories. All cultures in the ancient world did it.
COLD:
And where do you find this?
If the Bible is “simply astrotheology,” what about the complexities and wisdom in its law?
MP:
The Egyptians and babylonians also wrote many complex works. They even built grand and complex buildings. Just look at the pyramids they are amazing.
The Mitzvot law is nothing to be amazed at. Its just another copy with variations.
COLD:
In a land full of ignorance, evil and gross wickedness, including sexual depravities and bloodshed, how is it that a religion emerges based on righteousness, honesty, integrity, virtue, kindness, justice, mercy and sophistication?
MP:
Are you referring to the kindness of slavery, where the master can beat the slave almost to death, or if shes pretty rape her ? Then we have the grand equality of women, who are nothing more than sexual playthings in the BIble. Im sorry Egypt had better laws, thats why it was great. Judea wit hits terrible laws was weak and pathetic.
The Bible lies about a grand kking of David and more. Nearly every grand story in the bible is a lie.
COLD:
It just popped out of a desert culture and, in the case of the Israelites under the thumb of the Egyptians, it blossomed forth from an uncouth, uneducated, servantile people? I’d find that highly unlikely.
mP:
The Egyptians were grreater. Just look at what they built and their science.
COLD:
This foundation of justice, mercy and righteousness wasn’t just a flash in the pan, either. It is found in the writings of Hebrew prophets throughout the generations. My point is that desert rats don’t just produce ideas and concepts that rival and even surpass the writings of the greatest of Greek philosophers. I don’t see it just popping out of nothing. Hebrew law influenced other great laws, including those of freedom found in Western Roman Law, the views of individual rights held sacred by the Greeks and Anglo-Saxons.
MP:
Everybody knows this is bullshit. Judea in the ancient world was a backwater, no inventions or technology or science.
COLD:
So blow it off on “astrotheology” (whatever that is); but it doesn’t explain the consistency in the law emanating, allegedly, from the Hebrew deity Yahweh.
mP:
How can you comment on something if you dont even know what it means or represents ?
As i stated before the Egyptians had a great system of law that is many times better than judaism. In fact major portions of the bible are copies of Egyptian texts. The jews copied their laws just like they copied the calendar, number system, writing, temple architecture, language and so on. There is little that is unique to the judaic culture. The vast majority of their life and how they lived it and the cutlure is a copy.
I already gave numerous examples, tehre are zilliojns in tbhe bible.
Psalm 84:11 (NIV) ~ For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favour and honour; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
I will give more if you are willing to actually address them instead of just talking along by yourself.