Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby 58 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    To gumby:

    : The big problem is this, (for me that is), if you are correct.......How does God view the millions who view Jesus as God?

    I have no idea. I will say, though, that if God is of a mind to kill millions of people whose only 'crime' is to believe what their parents taught them, then he's not worth a damn. But there are enough things in the Bible to make one really be afraid that God will you just for not believing the right things that make me not believe that this God exists. Maybe another one, maybe a Creator of some sort, maybe none at all -- but certainly not a monster who would kill people over something not their fault.

    I think that your thinking here is still rather too much influenced by the JWs and/or some other equally judgmental religion. JWs claim that God will kill trinitarians because of their belief, and trinitarians often claim the opposite. The Bible is just unclear enough on this matter that no one can say with absolute certainty that either position, or even a compromise position, is true. And if God expects people to make life and death decisions based on ambiguous information, then what kind of person is God? Assuming he exists at all, either he has to be forgiving enough that this issue is irrelevant, or he's a monster. You decide.

    : This may bring some back to the conclusion..."there must be a group who teaches the truth on these matters"

    It might, but that's just going back to that old judgmental JW stuff again.

    : As for your comments on HOW the NT writings BECAME as part of the bible cannon is good news for me.
    I have never yet had an explanation as to WHO decided WHO'S writings/letters, were to be part of the bible.

    I was also amazed when I found out that the Bible really is a Catholic/Jewish book. Given that, it's not surprising that the Society doesn't talk about this, right?

    : It would seem one would have had to be appointed by God himself, or to by someone who God had talked to, telling that person the writers letters were approved.

    Well, God talks to the Pope and the Governing Body, right? So they ought to know.

    : Taking all things said by Jesus and his followers at face value, will get you in a brain rat nest.

    Yep.

    : No...I'm not losing my religion....just having the guts to be open to.... "WHAT IS TRUTH"?

    A fine start. I have no idea what your background or present circumstances are, but I can say that if you can swing it, an excellent thing would be to start taking some challenging college courses in whatever interests you. If you've not gone to college, you may be amazed at how much your mind opens up when you're challenged by new ideas from intelligent people. One of the paradoxes of getting a better education is that the more you learn, the more you see how ignorant you are. I guess it's because you learn how much there is "out there" that you were entirely unaware of.

    AlanF

  • FrankRaven
    FrankRaven

    I believe in what John 1:1-14 said.God came in the flesh.Also I believe that God is a mystery.I'm a scholar of Theology and a 30 years theology and Bibical researcher.I know greek,Arabic,Latan,and Hebrew.
    But then again I don't need to know all of this and after all is said and done,it's my faith that sustains me.Plus I believe that the Holy Bible is my Final Authority.

    RevFrank

  • gumby
    gumby

    Alan. I will E-mail you if thats ok.
    DK. I will look for the book you mentioned.

    Frank...if your a scholar.....let's here some scholarly stuff.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    : Alan. I will E-mail you if thats ok.

    Of course.

    AlanF

  • gumby
    gumby

    Alan, that's fine. Thanks again

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So if Jesus is god based on that then so is the Devil.Or Bealzabubbbb.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    WAIT! are you saying that god is actually ... is ... is the DEVIL???!?

    plmkrzy: no, I'm not saying that all. I'm just saying if you--

    BLASHEMY! DIE YOU DEVIL WORSHIPPER!! DIE!!

    (fanatics are funny)

    mox

    MOXY I thought you were kidding but i guess you wern't. You Alright?

    You managed to take a very plain and simple syatement and completely throw it way out of context and if that wasn't bad enough use your own statement that YOU made out of it to call ME? a fanatic.
    That is incredible. WOW

    http://ourworld.cs.com/pwmkwzy/home.html

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    apologies plmkrzy. this isnt the first time my quirky sense of humour seems to have gone misunderstood.

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce
    all religious figures are gradually deified by their followers. the person of jesus fits the model perfectly. the general order is: pauline epistles -> synpotic gospels -> john's gospel -> post-apostolic fathers -> nicea.

    pauline epistles: jesus is holy from resurrection. his earthly life is of no significance whatsoever, no hint of pre-human existence. (note that not all the epistles traditionally attributed to paul are actually pauline.)

    synoptic gospels: jesus is holy during life. can be futher divided between mark and the later matthew/luke. mark has jesus holy from baptism. pre-baptism life of no significance. matthew/luke has jesus holy from birth, no pre-human existence mentioned.

    johns gospel: holy from 'the beginning.' deification hinted at but unclear.

    post-apostolic: further refinement of deity teaching, but controversial.

    nicea: codified as doctrine.

    it fits so perfectly, that i had to literally smack myself in the head that i hadnt seen it during my time as a witness. but i am baffled that so many trinitarians in this day and age seem unable to perceive it. not all believers of the trinity doctrine are so blinded by faith. some admit that the teaching was gradual just as it appears, that the earliest writers did not understand it but that god revealed it gradually to the church as time went on. this at least makes some kind of consistent sense. i reserve my strongest bafflement for the mental capabalities of those who think the trinity is taught thruout the entire modern bible.

    mox

    Spot on Moxy,

    Jesus lived as a man, worked as a rabbii and died as a messiah in the traditional Jewish manner. He was conveniently raised and rebadged by Paul and his groupies for well documented political and religious reasons.

    unclebruce.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Unc....I don't think Moxy is still around.

    Thanks for hitting that link though....you were prolly the only one who even looked at it. Guess nobody likes the oldies but goodie section

    Gumby

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I looked at it, but decided the spelling found in it made it too chronic to contribute to.

    Since Lee condescended to post to it, I decided I was being a pr*ck and gave it a second chance

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