by Five Gospels 15 Replies latest jw friends
Lotus.
As you are one of the Faithful and Discreet Slave then could you tell us how the whole process works.
Do you regularly communicate with the GB or are you canvassed for your opinion/input? Do you pray together as a group? How does God communicate with you as his channel?
I discovered something,When I mention Luke 24:39,Witnesses denie that Christ had flesh and bones.They say that Christ came back as a spirit.When I do mention that Christ said Himself that He wasn't a spirit in that passage,they denie that it's there.I wouldn't believe that they would say that unless I saw it myself.So I truly believe that many witnesses have been blinded by the god of this system(Satan).There is just no other explanation.
1John 4:3......those who denie that Christ came in the flesh is of the Anti-Christ."
RevFrank
Thank you for your comments everybody. As most of you can probably appreciate, I'm not really pulling my hair out over this one. Rather, I presented this dilemma as another example of the tenuous nature of Watchtower doctrine.
To give a little more background, I presented this problem in response to information found in the 2/15 1998 Watchtower, page 20,
Suppose an anointed one became unfaithful. Would there be a replacement? Paul indicated as much in his discussion of the symbolic olive tree. (Romans 11:11-32) If a spirit-begotten one needs to be replaced, likely God would give the heavenly calling to someone whose faith had been exemplary in rendering sacred service to him for many years.-Compare Luke 22:28, 29; 1 Peter 1:6, 7., along with my own observation of a particular "anointed" Christian falling away and then returning.
Many of you made some interesting points.
Lotus,
I appreciate your response. As one of the anointed, do you have any thoughts on the actual dilemma that I presented?
singsongboi,
You make interesting point:
however, in the event, that a 'called' member of the 144,000 dies unfaithful...then it's logical that god could 'call' a replacement -- whoever he may choose to call!!!This may seem logical at first, but on closer inspection it presents a couple of problems. First, if Jehovah waited until an unfaithful member of the 144,000 dies before calling a replacement, then what happens (as Amazing points out) if one such member lives long enough to have to be destroyed at Armageddon? (This is a real possibility in Watchtower theology since Armageddon is "so imminent" and some of the newer anointed are so [relatively] young.) After Armageddon, nobody will be dying of natural causes, so there will be nobody in any position to go to heaven - at least not in the standard way. Secondly, the 1998 2/15 Watchtower (quoted above) suggests that a replacement would be made if one becomes unfaithful but doesn't suggest that this would only occur after this one dies. However, as you appropriately pointed out, this is all just THEORY.
Moxy,
You said:
yes, this is a dilemma. but you dont seem to be familiar with the *actual* WT teaching on free will. they teach that god *can* foreknow anything he wishes to, but *chooses* not to. and his choosing not to is equivalent to free will. in order to make the theology work in wacky places like the DF'ed anointed you mention and other places, one has to invoke jehovahs ability to selectively foreknow certain things.Actually, I'm painfully familiar with the *actual* WT teaching on free will. Notice that I said:
For those inclined to respond that "God can choose, or choose not, to determine in advance the course of a person's life" (the infamous "radio station" analogy from the Reasoning book) then why would He not use this ability on the ones He first invites into the fold to save Himself the trouble of having to call another when one falls away permanently?The "radio station" analogy is found on p. 141 of the Reasoning from the Scriptures book (both the 1985 and 1989 edition). Like many other Watchtower "reasonings," I bought into this until I finally overcame my Watchtower trained "stop think" and started asking the really hard questions. (The refutation of this view probably deserves its own thread.)
Justin,
I enjoyed your comment too. Can you provide any Watchtower articles that support your view? Specifically, if one repents before Jehovah removes their righteous standing, they are received back as anointed ones?
Thanks again everyone. As usual, I find people's posts here to be intelligent, insightful and engaging.
Five Gospels
Five Gospels,
I no longer have access to the Watchtower publications. The teaching on being "declared righteous," or in the KJV English, "justified," is an old JW teaching specifically related to the anointed. I seem to remember an article published on this in the March 15, 1946 Watchtower (which I read years later), and there is probably an article in the Aid to Bible Understanding. I did recently read Chapter 3 of Russell's "The New Creation," which is Volume XI of the STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES and which I obtained from the Bible Students. Russell apparently believed that if an anointed one committed a serious offense and repented, they would be transferred to the secondary heavenly class - an option which is not available in the current understanding.
As far as an anointed retaining the justified condition even during disfellowshipment, this was my own opinion as I stated in my first post, and was the way I personally made sense of the WT's position that they could be received back as anointed. It's the only way I can make sense of it, the thought that one's final rejection must come from Jehovah rather than from a judificial committee of imperfect men.
Justin
Were you asking for a Watchtower quote regarding the FACT that they are taken back as anointed? There was a quote given in a previous post. Perhaps someone can refer you to that. I believe it uses the example of the man who was disfellowshipped from the Corinthian congregation and then taken back, and uses the argument that the only hope available at that time was the heavenly one, hence they have a Scriptural example of a reinstated anointed. But I don't think they gave their own explanation of what the person's standing would be before Jehovah while disfellowshipped.
The past Awake magazines before the year 2000 or maybe less,the WatchTower printed just inside the magazine said that before the generation,1914,was over armageddon was to come.Now there are two schools of thought on a generation.One is 35 years or 70 years.Besides,if you do the math,the generation was over a very long time ago.
Then in my time,1975,WatchTower said Armageddon was to come.Never happened.As for the 144,000,in 1973 there was suppose to be less then 8,000 left in the world,plus their ages were up in the 60s and 70s.Today they say there are about 8,000 left in the world.
If you do the math,there are more today then 30 years ago.
Since WatchTower prophecy armageddon was to come in 1914,1916,1918,1925,1941,1975,ects.You get the picture?
Words are nothing,if there is no action.So I consider the WatchTower as a false prophets and lost their crediblity with me years ago.
Do the math and see what are the results.....
""It is not a form of religious persecution to say and to show that another religion is false, for an informed person to expose publicly a certain religion as being false, thus allowing persons to see the difference between false religion and true religion." (Watchtower 11/15/63, p 688)""
RevFrank
