Evidence?
Maybe not enough to convince "Realist"
Evidence to me may not be sufficient to you.
Your evidence proving it false may not be sufficient to me.
I think it depends also what someone wants to believe.
Suffering
by Realist 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Solace
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Realist
@ heaven:
in science you do an experiment to proof or disproof a hypothesis. is there any evidence for you that supports that the bible is inspired?
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teejay
if the sin committed by adam and eve is responsible for suffering how can one explain the fact that animals died long before that event? or are animals not considered to suffer?
Realist,
I can’t tell you how a JW would answer your question (or even if there is a scriptural answer to it), but to me “suffering” involves more than just the sensation of pain. Obviously, animals sense pain and have a natural, instinctive, physical reaction to it. One definition of “suffer” is “to feel pain or distress,” so in that way, the DO suffer.
But the full meaning of the term "suffering," to me anyway, means more than that. It involves a psychic, conscious thought process, a realization of what the pain means. This is something animals show little evidence of being able to do. An animal with its foot caught in a trap or one that has gone a long time without a meal definitely suffers, but it’s not the same as a human in a similar condition. And, imo, it’s debatable whether animals suffer at all when one of their kind dies.
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Solace
Realist,
Actual scientific proof that bible is the inspired word of God?Uhhhhhh,
Yea, Just hold on a sec' while I get Jesus on line.
[8>] -
Realist
@ teejay:
there is very good evidence that higher primates and several sea mammals possess conscience and also grieve about the loss of others (dogs seem to show the same behavior...but if they possess real conscience is debatable). -
Realist
@ heaven:
doesn't have to scientific facts...just any kind of proof would be nice. PS: i like that green smiley! :) -
Moxy
JW answer is that animals are meant to die naturally. (pardus' statement about suffereing essentially sums up the JW position but i dont know where he thinks it is in the bible.) that is why animals dont struggle against natural death the way humans do, fighting with all their energy to stave off the inevitable. humans were meant to live forever and animals werent. so the explanation goes.
of course the followup question to this that my JW childhood mind struggled with was how children in the new system would deal with the death of a pet. would we not have pets? not become emotionally attached to animals? or would we somehow be transformed into being immune to that pain, similar to the way resurrected ones are apparently immune to sexual or romantic desire?
mox
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Nathan Natas
Hi Realist,
I will try to answer your question, since I was a Dub for about 20 years, beginning at about age 7 when such questions occurred to me.
Although the Bible does not specifically say that animals died in Adam's time, it also does not say that they were immortal. As you know, this doesn't stop speculation on the matter. The people who answered my question employed what I now consider to be species chauvanism; I was told that animals were created to die, that this was God's intent for them.
If you accept the psychotic God of the Old Testament, this may fit as part of his modus operandi. If you want to believe that "God is Love" it is more difficult. The Boble does tell us that death is the penalty for sin, and yet we have no indication that animals of each and every species that has ever existed have all sinned and thus deserve their fate.
The inescapable concludsion is that Flower is corredt: the Bible is BS.
On the matter of asteroids, I think the "dinosaur killer was about six miles long - about hald the length of Manhattan Island in NYC. Not all asteroids are so large, and some are MUCH larger. I have read that meteors the size of a house are quite often passing within the moon's orbit - about 240,000 miles - and the earth. Someday a "mere" house sized meteor will come to earth, and we will not go extinct, but we will witness vast devestation and juman sufferring.
Not all threats come from space. Tectonic actity may have also caused previous extinction events/ The Yellowstone calera is nearly due to pop. If it does, the USA will cease to exist. Other volcanic hot spots in Califonia - Mammoth Lakes, I think - pose considerable threats because of the nearby population centers.
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seven006
Realist,
You are correct based on what we have discovered to date. The problem is what we have not been able to discovered that I base my comment on. With only a hand full of people looking and millions of asteroids floating around anything is possible. Here is a link to justify my comments as well as yours.
As far as no one being around to record what happened 60 million years ago I agree to a point. The earth itself gives is evidence of what did or did not happen. Myths have been handed down for thousands of years and as many stories are passed down and added too the same is true of bible stories. An event happens and story tellers own interpretation is added as it is passed down. The dinosaurs were here, that is an absolute. They are all gone, that is also an absolute. How and why is the work of science. Myths are the work of religion.
Take care
Dave
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seven006
heaven,
No, you are not stupid. Sorry you took it personal.
I'll remove my last comment
Take care,
Dave