Pangs of Distress & UN as Disgusting Thing in 7/15/2013 WT Study Article

by ProfCNJ 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ProfCNJ
    ProfCNJ

    Hi folks. My wife and I have begun dissecting with eagerness the 7/15/2013 WT Study Article (Sept. 3-9, 2013) last week. On Sunday, it will be the start of the day of reckoning!

    I am happy to gain valuable insights from this forum as well as from Cedar's JW Survery blog. I have invited one of our elder-friends and some very close friends to study the said article with us prior to the WT study schedule this coming Sunday. While much has been covered already, I just found a couple points.

    First, Page 4 par. 5 states that: ...Thus, the events that began in 1914 were, not the beginning of the great tribulation, but the "beginning of pangs of distress." These pangs of distress correspond to what took place in Jerusalem and Judea from 33 CE to 66CE." This is where I need some help from our friends and brothers here. What are the events that took place between 33 - 66CE that made the WT writers conclude that such period correspond to "pangs of distress”? I Googled this period and found nothing so far to support the idea.

    Second, Par. 6 refers to the United Nations as the modern day disgusting thing. WT prophesied or interpreted that the UN will attack False Religion - just like when Roman army attacked Jerusalem and its temple during its first century fulfillment. I have embraced this doctrine since 1990; however, I didn't know what happened last Sunday during my personal study. It occurred to me that the parallelism or analogy of WT is weak and would not hold water.

    The Roman army and the Jews in Jerusalem are two different races/people. Simply put it, the Romans are different from the Jews in Jerusalem in a lot of respects (e.g. origin, nationality, political and religious beliefs). The attack is coming from the outside of Jerusalem. It's like Japan vs. US naval base in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii thing. Now examine closely how the WT identifies the UN as the modern disgusting thing to attack false religion.

    I told my wife the UN is an international organization composed of close to 200 member states/countries. Each country is composed of diverse religions or religious groups. A UN representative from a specific country has his/her own religion. A UN member-country virtually carries not only its own political and security interests to the UN body but the total interests of such member-country, including those matters that can affect the exercise of religious freedom.

    The intriguing question now is: How can the UN - as backed up by its member states - attack all false religions when such false religions WT are referring to are composed of the same people (practicing different religious beliefs) who are part of the UN? I am deeply confused how such an attack will happen? Even political officials are respectful of their own religious leaders (though there is always an exception). Would this mean the UN will order a bloody attack against all religions/churches in all their member-countries when the UN itself supports the exercise of religious freedom (see below)?

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the UN General Assembly in 1948. A Lutheran pastor, Frederick Nolde, represented the World Council of Churches in the deliberations that led to the Universal Declaration. He is credited as being the main drafter of Article 18, which reads as follows: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his (sic.) religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his (sic.) religion or belief in teaching practice, worship and observance.

    If ever this happens, this would be tantamount to annihilation of civilization. Imagine the governments destroying their very own churches, causing their extinction, and would just favor one organization - Jehovah's Witnesses? This also runs contrary to what happened to the people of Nineveh, an ancient city. They were saved from destruction by the Almighty God after they have heeded His message and repented. Take note that Nineveh was not part of God's chosen people .

    I know that to humans, things are impossible but to God, all things are possible. Nevertheless, they way the WT believes it will be the UN to destroy all false religions seems to be illogical and complicated to say the very least .

  • St George of England
    St George of England

    Paragraph 4 speaks about two fulfilments, one in the first century and one in our day.

    When the reading the Bible accounts quoted, I have yet to find ANY EVIDENCE to show that was what Jesus meant.

    Perhaps your elder friend could enlighten us.

    George

  • Listener
    Listener

    If your not familiar with it already you can use the search button on the top left hand side to research more about the UN destroying religion. Here's one link that might be of help as it lists a number of Watchtower articles on the topic.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/51750/1/e2809cChristendome28099-s-destruction-by-the-United-Nationse2809d

    I'm marking this, you've already brought up some new and interesting points.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    ProfCNJ:

    See the several posts I made on this thread. (Some are on the first page, some on the second.)

    Another point you should note is that Mt 24:4-35, which includes the "pangs of distress" and 'the disgusting thing standing in a holy place,' are, by context, 1st century events, within the generation that was alive when the prophecy was given.

    That doesn't preclude the idea that similar things and events are mentioned in Revelation. But to conclude that all the things mentioned in Mt 24:4-35 must have an exact later fulfillment leads to alot of difficulties.

    For example, Matthew has "earthquakes in one place after another." Revelation appears to only mention symbolic earthquakes: 8:5 and 11:13 (by context, before the end), and 6:12; 11:19; 16:18 (these three picturing the end).

    Matthew 24:4-35 limits the time of fulfillment to "this generation." Something that did take place without any mathematical gymnastics, as the events took their course by 70 AD. Revelation makes no allusions to "this generation." The Society's attempts to make "this generation" fit our time also are . . . well, you can search here for comments on that.

    Take Care

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    In answer to your question about "pangs of distress" between 33 - 66 AD (or C.E.), note what Jesus said:

    (Matthew 24:4-8 NWT) . . .And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

    The "pangs of distress" included:

    Many coming upon the basis of Jesus' name to mislead.

    Wars and reports of wars.

    This is further broken down to:

    Nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. (which appears to be an allusion to Isa 19:2)

    Food shortages.

    Earthquakes in one place after another. (Luke has "great earthquakes)

    Luke also includes pestilences in one place after another.

    R. T. France, in the NICNT-Matthew commentary (pp. 903, 904) mentions "earthquakes in Asia Minor in A.D. 61 and in Italy in A.D. 62, in Jerusalem in A.D. 67, and another serious earthquake at an unspecified earlier date in Palestine. A widespread famine around A.D. 46 is mentioned in Acts 11:28 and Josephus, Ant 3:320; 20.51-53, 101. Other more localized occurrences which did not get into historical records may also be assumed (note the mention of local earthquakes in [Matthew] 27:51 and Acts 16:26)."

    In the context of Matthew 24:1-35, "the end" involves what would happen to Jerusalem and its temple. And thus, Jesus is telling them that these "pangs of distress" are not a sign in themselves that "the end" is imminent. Back then in the ANE, wars, earthquakes, famines, and pestilences would have been viewed as signs of impending divine action (unlike today, where they would be more likely to move people for a scientific explanation and resolution). So Jesus is telling his disciples that these events are NOT an indication that the end is imminent. These are events that recur throughout human history, and so they "must take place." Like "the beginning of labor pains," they may tell you that you are pregnant, but in themselves are no indication of how long away the end is. Matthew 24:15 was the sign that "the end" was imminent.

    I take it that the one's coming in Jesus' name to mislead would use these human events to try to inspire followers.

  • Narcissistic Supply
    Narcissistic Supply

    they meant to say. "It makes my shit roll.".....

  • ablebodiedman
    ablebodiedman

    WT prophesied or interpreted that the UN will attack False Religion - just like when Roman army attacked Jerusalem and its temple during its first century fulfillment.

    There is a problem here with this interpretation of scripture.

    If the UN attacking false religion is the disgusting thing entering a Holy Place then, that means False Religion is Holy.

    Even insisting that the Romans undermining the 1st Century temple as being an initial fulfillment has big problems.

    How could the 1st Century Temple be something still Holy if Jesus Christ had already proclaimed that it had been abandoned?

    Also if the 1st Century Temple was still Holy then what does that say about the temple Jesus Christ said he would raise up 3 days after his death.

    The Watchtower also seem to imply that what Luke said about Jerusalem being surrounded by armies was an interpretation of the things privately said to some Apostles as recorded in Matthew Chapter 24.

    Wrong!

    Jerusalem being surrounded by armies was something Jesus Christ told a very large crowd of people as he was entering Jerusalem riding a donkey.

    Nothing private about that!

    abe

  • ablebodiedman
    ablebodiedman

    In regard to the disgusting thing entering the holy place Jesus Christ said this:

    Matthew 24:21

    for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

    The greatest tribulation the world had seen up to tthat point was Noah's Flood where only 8 people survived.

    The tribulation in the 1st Century was nowhere near that size. In fact since then there have been even worse tribulations upon the Jewish people (Nazi Holocast) since then and yet Jesus Christ said above; "no, nor will occur again".

    In other words what the Watchtower says about a 1st Century fulfillment is total BS.

    This prophecy can only be fulfilled once!

    abe

  • TotallyADD
    TotallyADD

    It's the same old, same old stuff they have talked about since I was a kid. Think about it! First the Wt. article on Apostate's. Now everyone in the cult are good and scared. Second, this article on the UN and how the big A is going start and everyone is going to die. This is nothing more than pure mind control to keep the flock in line. Most cult members to not see pass their nose. They can only see what they think is happening only in the the area they live. This statement about the UN bringing a total destruction to all relgion is nut's. When I was in the cult many of our friends thought this only meant christendom. They didn't even think about all the other major relgions. When you really start thinking about what the Wt. statement says you can see how dumb it is. The real truth about all they are saying is to scare everyone with their mind control. Totally ADD

  • ablebodiedman
    ablebodiedman

    Matthew 24:21

    for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

    Seems the Apostle Peter completely understood what Jesus Christ meant when he said; "for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now".

    2 Peter 2:4-6

    Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; 6 and by reducing the cities Sod´om and Go·mor´rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;

    There can be only one fulfillment of the prophecy in Matthew Chapter 24!

    abe

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