by Cold Steel 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Perry, you said the familial bonds are the WT's real currency - you really expressed it well, i would not have ever thought of it like that, but it is so true. If we tow the line.
IF you can FIND the line, --really there are hundreds of lines to tow, every little authoritarian wants to push their weight around and make themselves feel superior and bulldoze somebody for something. Just when you think you found all the land mines ten others blow up in your face.
TD: The Society actually does not disfellowship anyone. Your relationship is entirely between you and your local congregation.
Yes, but the congregation is the Society. Every Kingdom Hall has to abide by the rules and regulations handed down by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. And even if it comes down to the congregation, again, why would members be so terrified of being disfellowshiped? The only ones who can loose on Earth and Heaven are those possessing the keys of the kingdom of heaven, which Jesus gave to Peter. Of course these aren’t literal keys, but keys of authority.
No one in the Society claims it is a church, and no one claims to have these keys. So when they cut someone off and expect God to honor that decision, they’re acting as if they possess those keys.
Narcissistic Supply: As I understand it, each of the KH's are a separate corporation. So it would be like being disfellowshiped from a small corporation under the umbrella of Microsoft. Or a small corporation under the umbrella of Apple.
This is probably true. The churches of Christ have congregations all over the U.S. and each is an independent cell. But they have no governing body to direct them, and except for not having musical instruments in their services, they can pretty much operate any way they wish.
I doubt that Kingdom Halls, as cells, can do the same. The overseers and elders disseminate the information and then they direct how the material will be interpreted and incorporated. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but if you’re disfellowshiped in one KH, you’re considered disfellowshiped in all KHs, right? And if you want back in, or reinstatement, doesn’t the decision have to be signed off by the original KH?
I’ve heard of people who are disfellowshiped moving to another KH and not telling anyone. Some even go through the Bible Study and are baptized again so they can restart.
Cantleave: And how do you know about JW's? —oh yeah by reading! How do you think I know about your stupid Mormon cult? Oh yeah by reading. I probably know as much about your religion as you do JW's.
I really doubt that. I’ve read your posts and you do little more than engage in name calling. Let’s see, ummm...”stupid Mormon cult.” Yeah, you sure seem to have really nailed us.
Have you ever sat down with our missionaries? Have you completed the discussions? Have you ever read our scholars? Of course not. I’ve gone through the JW Bible Study and I’ve read both sides of many issues. If someone asked me about the religion, my criticisms would be spot on. Everyone knows about their ritual shunning, their being forbidden to read the religious publications of other churches, of their doctrine of soul sleeping, and so forth.
From reading your posts, I’ve concluded that you don’t seem able to form and express your thoughts without being insulting and rude. And this seems to be consistently characteristic of ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons.
You get you info by visiting Ex-Jw sites and I get my info on your cult by visiting ex-mormon sites.
That must be why you know so much. But if you knew anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you wouldn’t be calling it a “cult.” I’ve been a member for more than 40 years, and the only fault I see in its members is that they should know more about their religion.
if you knew anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you wouldn’t be calling it a “cult.”
Says the man wearing the magic underpants who is obliged to believe in vanishing gold plates and that a book that is a blatant rip-off of the KJ bible is the actual word of god.
The stories of hundreds of ex-mormons are very compelling.
No one in the Society claims it is a church
Did you read my post on page 1? ;-)
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but if you’re disfellowshiped in one KH, you’re considered disfellowshiped in all KHs, right? And if you want back in, or reinstatement, doesn’t the decision have to be signed off by the original KH?
Yes, exactly. And as you indicated, the traveling circuit overseers and their bosses, the district overseers, keep the congregations in line. There are still cases when a congregation's elder body goes a bit rogue and isn't caught by the CO, but in those cases, what sometimes happens is that a brother who was an elder in another congregation switches to that cong., and is reappointed as an elder. He then sees that things are not being done properly and blows the whistle. At least I've seen that happen, with the result that more or less the entire elder body is replaced.
But... if you know all this, why did you ask the original question? Of course Witnesses should be afraid of getting DFed. Even if the Society actually has no authority to disfellowship, they do, and it's a big deal!
Resistance is Futile: You mentioned that there is a lot of misinformation spread by former members of the Mormon Church. As a current member I'd therefore appreciate your input. Is it true that while Joseph Smith was already married to his first wife he had sex with several teenage women? Do you think he may have used his position of authority in his community to take advantage of young impressionable women in order to satisfy his own sexual impulses?
Well, this is way off topic, but no, Joseph Smith was married to one teenage girl and it was a marriage instituted by her father, one of our greatest prophets, Heber C. Kimball. Kimball loved Joseph and was a loyal friend. Accordingly, he wished to be bound to him, his family to Smith's family. The best way he could do that, he reasoned, is by arranging a marriage with his daughter. As far as we know, this marriage was never consumated. At the time, the daughter, Helen Mar Kimball, was taken back by this. One of our historians writes:
Though listed as fourteen at the time of her sealing to the Prophet, Helen Mar Kimball was nearly fifteen (see pp. 487, 499). She herself explains that her father took the initiative to arrange the marriage: "Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth" (quoted on p. 498). Helen was approaching eligibility, and a vital social life was opening up with possible proposals. Since some young women married at sixteen, Heber C. Kimball and the Prophet evidently arranged an early marriage to insure the desired personal and family relationships. However, Helen continued to live with her parents. Because Helen's circumstances were exceptional, there is every reason not to assume a sexual dimension in her sealing to Joseph Smith.
Helen later went to Salt Lake City with her family and wrote a story about her life. She gave no indication that a sexual relationship was entered into. She died in full faith and fellowship in the church, and when she wrote of Joseph, it was glowingly. As a people, we have endured a great deal of disinformation. If you'd like any more information on this or any other aspect of Mormonism, please send me a PM and I'll reply.
If you'd like any more information on this or any other aspect of Mormonism, please send me a PM and I'll reply.
You are proselytising for your cult in a public forum, let's keep the criticism public too.
Yes, but the congregation is the Society. Every Kingdom Hall has to abide by the rules and regulations handed down by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I agree inasmuch as the JW parent organization(s) will refuse to recognize a congregation that is not in doctrinal conformity. I think that's neither here nor there inasmuch as who actually does the disfellowshipping is concerned. A JW's relationship is entirely between them and their local congregation. It is not between them and the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not between them and any other congregation.
Midlevel organizaitonal units in the JW faith (e.g. Circuits, Districts, etc.) aren't real legal entities in the sense that Sees or Dioceses are in the Catholic faith and there is therefore no legal chain of command. It is all doctrinal. Similarly, JW 'elders' are only elders in their local congregation. If they move elsewhere, they will cease to be elders. Unless and until they are appointed by whatever congregatin they've moved to, they will remain ordinary publishers. All this is a direct result of being organized as a congregational polity.
Elders you don't know from a congregation you've never attended really have no business ever contacting you and claiming a pastoral interest and/or attempting to exert ecclesiastical authority. I think a lot of walk-aways and faders take this 'laying down' when it does happen, because they are genuinely confused.
It's a great environment for those who are afraid of experiencing love, since it makes a mockery of familial love, turning it into a travesty.
Adamah,
You make a great point here as well. It is no secret (to me at least) that certain personality types are attracted to the WT more than others.
Joseph Smith was married to one teenage girl
I wasn't asking specifically about who he married. I was asking about the claims that he had sex with teenage girls in his community while he was married to his first wife Emma. Do you feel that the claims that he had sex with Fanny Alger (age 16), and Marinda Johnson (age 16) are credible? According to the Mormon Church how many official wives did Joseph Smith take? You said there is no evidence he had sex with his 15 year old bride Helen Kimball, was this true of his other wives? What I'm asking is, were all his other marriages asexual? Did he publicly deny the practice of polygamy will secretly taking multiple wives? Why would he feel the need to cover-up what he was doing?
And even if it comes down to the congregation, again, why would members be so terrified of being disfellowshiped?
First off the indoctrinated follower thinks that they have to be a part of the organization since it's the one "true" religion. Members also risk losing their entire family and friends when disfellowshipped or even if they walk away peacefully on their own accord. You can't understand how that prospect would be terrifying?
Apognophos: The Society rejected Catholic terminology for image reasons, but they are still a church and implicitly admit this. That's because “church” means “congregation.” ... Whether the Witnesses call themselves a church, society, fellowship, or a worldwide congregation, they are still an ecclesiastical body that has the power to excommunicate members. Whether they follow in the footsteps of the early Christians is a question of what they preach and practice, not the word they use in English to refer to themselves.
Yes, but a church is more than just a congregation. Doesn’t it have officers such as apostles, seventy, bishops, priests, evangelists, elders and so forth? And these weren’t self-appointed officers, but they were called and ordained. And the power the ancient church had to bind and loose was a divine power, whereas with the Jehovah's Witnesses, it’s a legal power.
And there’s another problem. The Jehovah's Witnesses made a significant mistake in dedicating themselves to Jehovah rather than Jesus. “Upon this rock I will build my church,” Jesus told Peter. So did the Bible students miss that while they were finding the elusive truth no one else had been able to find? It was one of the first things on the list and yet they missed it. And while Jehovah and Jesus were the same being, they still don’t know that.
The whole idea behind my question is that the Governing Body, as someone else pointed out, has given instructions to the (can I call them “members”?) to not have funerals at Kingdom Halls for those who died whilst disfellowshiped. Or, more precisely, not to give false comfort to family members when the person is most likely going to be resurrected and then destroyed. But how can the Governing Body operate as the Lord’s church without having the keys of authority given to Peter?
The Catholic church claims to have those keys of authority today. Not able to claim them, the protestants simply said they didn’t need them. But they never tried to bind or loose, which means that salvation was between man and God, and that no organization could tell you what to think or believe, as long as you believed in Christ.
But then comes the WTBTS and suddenly it becomes a hierarchal structure assuming all the power of the Catholic church but with no callings, no revelation, no ordinations, no angels. But to them they had something even more powerful. They could assume it.
It’s like a car that needs keys to drive. The Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans each claim they have a car and the keys necessary to operate it. As a Mormon, I believe those keys of authority were restored to the earth through heavenly messengers, which would like getting a new car and then being given the keys for it. Who has those keys is a debate for another time and place, but we know who doesn’t have either a car nor the keys, and that’s our friends at Bethel. Jehovah's Witnesses shouldn’t fret over the spiritual ramifications of being disfellowshiped. And if they lose loved ones who have died whilst disfellowshiped, they shouldn’t lose hope of ever seeing them again.
