Faith v. Works

by Ding 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Ding

  Recently, I wanted to make sure I was being accurate about WT doctrine, so I read a number of WT articles about salvation.

  I was surprised to see how many of them say that everlasting life is a gift based on the ransom sacrifice, that it can't be earned.

  If you talk to a JW they may even quote this teaching.

  Yet if you try to tell a JW that the Bible says the salvation comes by grace through faith, they immediately tell you that faith without works is dead and that you need to take in knowledge, obey God's laws, identify and join Jehovah's organization, and for the rest of your life go door to door with the good news of Jehovah's Kingdom.

  Why do you think JWs can't see the contradiction in all of this?

  How can we get across to them that this doesn't make sense?
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  Crazyguy

  I dont think you can, people arent used to getting something for nothing. I have come to understand that 'works' is about the fruitage of the spirit and practicing them. Infact Jesus's parables are mostly about practising these. There are scriptures that help bring this out paradisecafediscussion.org has some good stuff but i can not get on to site to share with this one at the moment. You may want to check out that forum.
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  UBM101

  Work = action

  When you have faith, you work the faith. It doesn't just about work such as preaching, door to door etc, it is more about the fruit of the Holy Spirit ie changes in attitude, habits etc. Somebody who really believe in sth has faith in that sth thus, his/her actions will be influence by what she/he believes.

  The Bible also emphasizes alot about works/ministry but it doesn't say that these works are for salvation. It is more about getting the rewards. Rewards and salvation are two different things.

  My 2 cents from the Christendom world where I come from.
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  Phizzy

  Dear UBM101, I always viewed things exactly that way when I was an active JW. My basic motive was to serve God by being like Jesus as much as I could.

  Though the Elders and C.O's etc only looked at your F.S report, I viewed whatever I did for fellow JW's or "worldly" people, especially my literal neighbours, as being part of "works" that showed I had a living faith. I understood the idea of Grace.

  I know that I was unusual though amongst the JW's, or as my never a JW S.I.L calls me, a " f****** weirdo." LOL

  The ones that make me laugh, and I saw a number like this over the years, are those with "problems", usually a secret sin, or a marriage that was the pits, and they would do lots of extra FS, as though Pioneering or something cancelled out their sin !

  JW's understand so little of what Chrisitianity really is, or how, according to the Bible, it works.

  The funny thing is, that now I am an unbeliever, a non-Theist, I do more of what I then considered "Chrisitan works" than I ever did then, partly because I have more time now, not being on the JW treadmill, but also I am more motivated than ever to help my fellow humans, and animals too !
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  BroMac

  Phizzy
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  leavingwt

  Never discuss doctrine. <-----It may sound silly, but Hassan is right. This is a dead end street. It's not about correct doctrine.

  ("Grace" is not a component of JW dogma. The very term is foreign to them.)
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  Phizzy

  I agree the term is foreign to them, most of them would not have clue what it meant. But ask them if you are given Everlasting life because of works or "undeserved kindness", how would they answer ?

  And yet, how do they live ? Hypocrites who do not live as they supposedly believe is what most of them are.

  I agree that discussing doctrine is a waste of time, unless you want to do it for fun. So is discussing the W.T shady history, membership of the U.N, and even the Paedophile scandal, they have their cult-prepared answers or defense mechanisms for all of these.

  It would not raise the ApostaRadar perhaps though, to carefully propose the Bibles explanation of Grace, without calling it that, use "undeserved kindness", but it may make a good hearted JW re-evaluate what "works" they do. You never know.
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  Laika

  Christians, at least protestant/evangelical ones, tend to argue that you are saved by faith alone. The difference with JWs is that they believe you are saved by both faith and works, neither alone. When they say you are not saved by works they mean not works alone, you need faith to go with it.

  It's not exactly a contradiction so much as a different understanding of the terms. Though it does create the issue of worrying if they've done enough.

  I emphasise the unconditional love of God described in the parables of Luke 15 with JWs, from which you can build on what grace is.
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  leavingwt

  Calvinism and Predestination introduce another set of complexities, also.

  You could argue all of these things around, around, and around.

  The problem is one of authority. To the JW, the Watchtower magazine is THE authority. Whatever is printed, they believe it.

  So, the challenge is to get the JW to recognize a different authority. Doctrine is almost irrelevant. The strongly held beliefs that a JW has today, can change completely, with the publication of a WT magazine. This is a very real example of why the details of doctrine are irrelevant.

  When the new light is published, they will vehemently defend the new light -- even if it is 180 degrees opposite of what they defended last week.
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  Witness 007

  Witness double talk....we believe in Jesus gift but you need works???????