Attacking Newbie JW's

by VioletAnai 63 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ashitaka

  Violet

  I was rarely given any benefit of ANY doubt as a dub. Therefore, I return the compliment whenever I can...

  that might be why some pro-JW comments are met with such derision.

  ashi
• 

  arachnia

  I don't post on these boards often, but I delurk occasionally, here's one of those times.

  Much has been made in this thread about circular arguments, lack of facts presented to substantiate arguments, etc. This brings up the subject of critical thinking and logic (in my mind, at least.)

  Oh, how I wish I would have known about these things when I was being raised as a JW. I wish I had been given the opportunity to learn about them and apply these standards to the things with which I was being indoctrinated. It would have truly been a gift to me, and to many of us who were trapped in the religion we have since found the strength to leave. However, in order to learn of these things, one must typically take courses (generally college level courses) in Philosophy, Logic, and those concentrating on the Scientific Method. These were all big no-no's when I was growing up. College was a no-no; if someone from a particularly privileged family was given an exemption as it were and allowed to attend, they were specifically warned away from those sort of courses. Was this anyone else's experience? I suspect that it is, or something very close to it.

  Since then, I have become acquainted with Critical Thinking, Logic, and the Scientific Method. I recognize their intrinsic value to life, not just my own, but to everyone's. In the hopes that I might be able to share this with someone who truly is seeking to live an examined life (For as Socrates so eloquently stated, "The unexamined life is not worth living.") and to use the observations/conclusions they reach after utlizing these methods in determining their life choices, including religious ones, here are some links to good information.

  A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
  http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html

  Logical Fallacies in Argumentation
  http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

  Violet, like I said before, I don't post here often. However, from my lurking observation, I do know that this forum isn't all about calling names or hurling insults at pro-JW's. I know sometimes, people can get bitter about any pro-JW sentiment, and I've even been guilty of it myself from time to time. :) But we are all at different points in our lives in terms of processing what has happened to us and how to respond to that. Some people are in a more painful place than others, and someone else observed that there are those who are so sensitive towards what injustice did occur to them that they are unable to leave statements of support to the thing that did them that harm or *allowed* that harm to stand unchallenged. When posting in a forum such as this, it should be acknowledged that not everyone is going to support your point of view, but the beauty of open forums is that everyone has a chance to express their point of view, regardless of whether other people agree with it. The end result of this is that those who see the value of Aristotle's words, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." have an opportunity to consider other viewpoints, and evaluate them in light of the critical thinking and logical standards posted above.

  Here is something to consider. You mentioned that you were sexually abused in the past by someone in the JW's. I am very sorry to hear that, and I don't mean to dig it up and cause you grief. However, you mention that your current attitude is that it was not the fault of the religion, but rather, of the individual who perpetrated the act. Therefore, you feel you should not hold the religion responsible for allowing said abuse. I know that in the past the Watchtower has been extremely critical of other religions, especially the Catholic Church, for having allowed its clergy to sexually abuse its members. The Watchtower has not simply held the individual priests as being soley responsible for these acts, but has argued that **the Church** is equally, if not more, responsible for allowing this abuse and rape. In fact, they have offered this as further proof that the Catholic Church is part of "Babylon The Great," and is therefore rejected by god, and so those members within its ranks who seek the "true religion" should consider that proof and leave the Church to (ultimately) become JW's instead, because JW's have the "true" religion. I've seen recent quotes from their publications that indicate this attitude has not changed.

  However, when sexual abuse occurs within the JW ranks, it is the **individuals** who are targeted as the problem, and are accused as having fallen to their own desires and temptations, and the congregation structure itself not considered a problem. In fact, it is carefully guarded from attack as a result of keeping from the congregation or the public/the Law any knowledge of what happened. And, the member who perpetrated the act is in many cases allowed to remain in "good standing" because there weren't any witnesses to the abuse. (Ironically, the profile of most child molesters would indicate that in fact, they target their victims precisely while they are alone, ergo, no witnesses, which is exactly their objective so that they can get away with it.) It is exactly the opposite of the standard by which they measure other churches to prove whether or not those churches have the "true religion." While other churches are held responsible by the Watchtower from an organizational standpoint in order to prove that they are "rotten to the core," and therefore, "false religion," when the same abuse takes place within the Watchtower's ranks, only the individual is held responsible, and the organization itself is not even considered as a possible contributor. I'm curious as to how you reconcile the double standard? Or have you not recognized it? I'm not asking this to be petty, or cruel. I'm geniuinely interested, because it seems to me that if you are willing to excuse what happened to you once, you might be willing to do it again if it takes place within the confines of the congregation - without holding the leadership responsible. You may consider yourself safe now, because you are an adult, but remember, you can still be raped. Your children (even if you haven't had any yet) can be too. Are you willing to dismiss it again, simply because you don't hold the religion responsible for the actions of individuals? And how will you live with that if it does occur, say to one of your future children, knowing that *you* brought them into a religious environment that tolerates that behavior within individuals without reporting them to the law? I certainly hope these things don't occur. But, they certainly can, and you would know that better than anyone, because it DID happen to you. I'm just curious if you have considered all of the implications. I sure wish someone would have asked me these kind of questions way back when. Check out those links I posted. I don't expect you to respond to them immediately. In fact, it would really do you the greatest benefit simply to bookmark them and refer back to them frequently in order to learn how to evaluate the information being presented to you that insists that you should change your thinking, beliefs, and lifestyle. Something with those drastic demands should be evaluated logically before any committment to it is made. Just think about it. I have no desire to get into an argument with you. But you asked for a calm, intelligent response and that is what I am attempting to provide here, and my aim is to provide you with useful information while doing it.

  Bookmark those links. Even if you decide that they are not valuable to you now, your standpoint may change in a few weeks, months, or years....good luck. :)

  That's my .02 cents. Spend it how you see fit. :)

  Cheers,
  ~arachnia

  Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
  -Kahlil Gibran
• 

  CoolBreeze

  I for one despise defenders of all things evil, that includes the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazi's, and the JW's. All three organization are self serving, and hate filled. All preach the message that unless you are like us and believe like us you are not worthy of breathing our air. All three groups also do things that deliberately irritate people that do not agree with them, just so they can say "See we are the cosen ones because the rest of the world despises us."

  When I see ignorance I try to inform. If you are informed and you still choose evil, either you are evil, or just plain stupid. In either case you deserve to be attacked.

  My two drachmas worth,
  Anton
• 

  bigfloppydog

  Violet, I don't know you, but have been reading posts. You ask people not to be so sensitive, well maybe in time if it ever happens and you become on the receiving end of not so loving JW's, as they profess to be and go through the heart-ache, pain and sorrow as some of us have at their un-christian love, you will feel differently, you paint them as being pure-as-the-driven snow, but alot of us know differently, and that is part of the reason they are not part of the org. If being a JW makes you happy, then go where your heart is, but let ones here live in their own peace of mind, and live their lives according, without any added pressure. You don't know what others have experienced through their years as JW's. Some have been through years of pain, sometimes to hard to even speak of. Becareful that when you judge others, that you yourself may be judged. I still remember a talk once and a point was brought out, if you point a finger at someone, there is four fingers pointing back at you. I hope you find the happiness you are looking for.