CHRISTIANS: Are we meant to identify the last days?

by Zoos 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  transhuman68

  was it all a mishmash.

  It is all a mishmash. Here's a quote from one of Bart Ehrman's books:

  The Delay of the End of Time.

  Luke’s idea of the divine plan relates to one other distinctive aspect of his Gospel. In Mark and Matthew, as we saw, Jesus predicts the imminent end of the world. In Luke all of these predictions about the end are worded differently. In Luke, Jesus does not envisage the end of the age happening immediately. How could he? First the Christian church had to be spread among the Gentiles, and this would take time.

  Consider the differences between the apocalyptic predictions of Mark and those of Luke. In Mark 9:1, Jesus claims that some of his disciples will not taste death “until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” Luke has the same story, but here the disciples are told simply that some of them will not taste death until “they see the kingdom of God” (9:27; note that they are not promised to see its “coming in power,” i.e., with the coming of the Son of Man). For Luke, the disciples already see the kingdom of God, because for him the kingdom of God is already present in Jesus’ ministry. This becomes clear in several stories found only in Luke: the kingdom of God is said to have “come near” in the ministry of Jesus’ disciples (14:9, 11), it is said to have already “come to you” in Jesus’ own ministry (11:20), and it is said already to be “among you” in the person of Jesus himself (17:21). To be sure, even in Luke there is to be a final cataclysmic end to history at the end of this age (21:7-32), but this will not come during the disciples’ lifetime.

  Luke’s emphasis on the delay of the end also explains the difference in Jesus’ reply when interrogated by the high priest. Whereas in Mark Jesus stated that the high priest would “see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (14:62), in Luke his response is simply that “from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God” (22:69). Luke appears to know full well that this high priest would not live to see the Son of Man coming in his glory to bring the end of the age; in his version of the story, Jesus never predicts that he will.

  So there you are- the Gospels don't agree with each other, and as the Bible was written over a period of time the writers have updated Jesus' words to remain relevant. All of the New Testament was written for a 1st century audience- there is nothing there for us. Sorry.

  b.t.w: I'm a sun-worshipping heathen.
• 

  adamah

  To add onto the prior comment by TH66, the last book to be added to the canon was the epistle of 2nd Peter, which is widely recognized by NT scholars to be a fraud (amongst other reasons like Peter being illiterate, it was talking about issues that occurred LONG AFTER Apostle Peter was supposedly crucified, for one). The epistle of 2nd Peter contained reassurances to 2nd century Christians (who likely were getting taunted on the failed apocalypse by the pagans, akin to JWs "last generation" theology) by explaining that Christ's return had been delayed to give more heathens an opportunity to be saved, also offering the tepid excuse that "with God, 1,000 yrs is but a day."

  Such excusiology worked ALL TOO WELL, since it's almost 2,000 yrs later and Christians are still waiting (and have claimed events ARE taking place, but they're invisible!) and expecting the end-times to start "any moment now"!?

  Adam
• 

  Cold Steel

  Zoos: I've become content to leave prophesy to history - sort it out later. I was just wondering if Jesus was telling us we HAD to look for sign x,y,z in order to "stay awake," and if so, what part of it is about Jerusalem and what part of it was about the last days or was it all a mishmash?

  Prophesy was given to man for a reason, and of course the Lord wants you to understand it as a warning for the future. Remember that he told the apostles that Jerusalem would be destroyed and he told them to stand in holy places. To most Jews, this would be the temple; however, since Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed, the “holy places” had to be elsewhere. Undoubtedly, as the time of destruction approached, the apostles received revelation stipulating where they were to go. Since the Christians left Jerusalem and ended up in Pella, that was the holy place designated for them by the Lord.

  In today’s world, the scriptures speak about great tribulations and what will happen. It doesn’t help Jehovah's Witnesses because they so badly interpret the prophecies that they become meaningless. They take prophecies that apply to Jerusalem in the latter days and apply them to themselves. Armageddon is a great example of that. In the scriptures, Jerusalem will be attacked by a vastly superior military force led by a man known only as "the Beast." For three and a half years he will rail against the Jews, which John describes as a degenerate people. Defending the Jews are two witnesses, or "prophets," who will preach to the people and use God's power to stave off the Beast. After three and a half years, the Beast will succeed in killing the two prophets. He will leave their bodies in the streets for people to pass by and look at and throughout the region, celebrations will take place because the two prophets that tormented him were dead. Then, three and a half days later, an amazing thing will take place. The two prophets will suddenly reanimate as resurrected beings. As they ascend into heaven, the last thing the Beast sees is a white hot fire that will kill him as he stands on his feet, and it will kill all but a sixth of his vast army. Unbeknownst to him, the Being generating that light will be the returning Jesus Christ, who descends upon the Mount of Olives and appears to the remaining Jews. When they see the wounds in His hands and feet, they will immediately know His identity and go into a state of mouring and worship. In short, they will be converted in a single day.

  For background work on these biblical prophecies, I recommend the book, The Islamic Antichrist: The Truth About the Real Nature of the Beast. The author, Joel Richardson, covers most of what will happen just prior to the coming of the Son of Man, and the things that must occur before it is fulfilled, such as the building of the temple and the deception of the Beast. Most importantly, the Beast of Revelation will also be accompanied by a false Jesus or false prophet, and he will have power to do many mighy miracles. Most importantly, they will have power almost exclusively in the Old World, not the Western Hemisphere. My only criticism is that Richardson doesn’t cover the two prophets in Revelation 11. Many Christians believe these two prophets will be Elijah and Moses, or Elijah and Enoch; however, there’s no reason the two witnesses, or prophets, cannot be called and ordained in this dispensation, and I believe they will be ordinary people who will be called of God and ordained to deliver His message to both Jew and Gentile.

  God would not include prophecies in the holy writ unless He wanted people to read them and not fear them or be caught unawares when they come to pass.
• 

  Zoos

  God would not include prophecies in the holy writ unless He wanted people to read them and not fear them or be caught unawares when they come to pass.

  I see your point, but it is all so subjective with each party claiming truth. It has become humanly impossible to legitimately lay claim to absolute accuracy - ESPECIALLY when you start quoting Revelation with all it's imagery.

  For the sake of argument, let's assume that every understanding of prophesy you just mentioned above is wrong. When the prophesies begin to be fulfilled in some other way, it will constitute an "aha!" moment for us, but not necessarily catch us off guard or fearfull... because we knew SOMETHING was coming.

  I believe the argument the author was making is that Jesus gave prophesies about his second coming that could reasonable be applied to every generation that has lived over the last 2000 years, having the affect of keeping every generation sharp and on it's toes. He reasons that THAT was the purpose of the prophesy - not the actual, factual, absolutist identification of a pinpoint in time.

  In your earlier post you said: Jesus used prophecy to show the people that God knew all things from the beginning and to show them the signs of his [second] coming, which all the prophets looked forward to.

  But the information provided could be broadly applied by several generations... and he knew it.