after many months of the husband ignoreing the elephant inthe room

by nonjwspouse 18 Replies latest members private

• 

  notjustyet

  Just throwing this out there to see if it might be of any benefit to you at some point in time.

  When he said "I believe that the GB are the only true word of god on the earth"

  Carl Sagan said "I don't want to believe, I want to know"

  You could say that "believing" is not the same as "knowing" and that alot of people "believe" in something that is not true.

  Lets say that you are buying a house, putting your entire savings into this house and you are told by the agent that they "believe" that the termite treatment was done. You would not be out of place to ask to see evidence of the treatment and that belief alone is not enough to satisfy you since buying a house is such an important investment. What if the agent that was trying to sell you this house said that you should not be asking to see the termite report and that this was the only house for sale and that if you keep asking to see that report that they will never sell you the house.

  You would back away from that person as you would think that more than likely their is a reason that they do not want you to keep asking about the report and the obvious reason is that it does not exist.

  Then I would mention that the only indication that a person can logically use to see if the GB is actually gods mouthpiece would be to see their track history in what they said would happen, and what actually happened. Looking ahead to the future promises are not valid since, of course, they have not happened yet.

  Tell him that you will only use WTBTS published materials to use to see what they said would happen vs what actually happened.

  Then show him the failed prophecies about 1874 1914, 1915, 1925, etc

  Then explain how a person should not be biased into believing something based on the consequences of that belief. I think that many times we make decisions as for as what to believe based on the desired percieved consequences of what that belief would deliver.

  Argument from Consequences

  Arguing from consequences is speaking for or against the validity of a proposition by appealing to the consequences of accepting or rejecting it. Just because a proposition leads to some unfavorable result does not mean that it is false. Similarly, just because a proposition has good consequences does not all of a sudden make it true. As David Hackett Fischer puts it, “it does not follow, that a quality which attaches to an effect is transferable to the cause.”

  In the case of good consequences, an argument may appeal to an audience's hopes, which at times take the form of wishful thinking. In the case of bad consequences, such an argument may instead appeal to an audience's fears. For example, take Dostoevsky's line, “If God does not exist, then everything is permitted.” Discussions of objective morality aside, the appeal to the apparent grim consequences of a purely materialistic world says nothing about whether or not the antecedent is true.

  One should keep in mind that such arguments are fallacious only when they deal with propositions with objective truth values, and not when they deal with decisions or policies [Curtis], such as a politician opposing the raising of taxes for fear that it will adversely impact the lives of constituents, for example.

  (taken from https://bookofbadarguments.com/?view=allpages )

  NJY
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Not just yet, - very good point that I did't bring up. Believing is not the same as knowing. "Knowladge" is what the WT is all about. I have been repeating in different words in the past, that he figure out for him self how he KNOWS the GB is the ONLY mouthpiece of God. When I ask this of him he is at a loss for words, and ends the discussion by walking out. ( then accusing me of peppering himwith questions and not respecting his need to be alone etc. ) If I ask that same question I am met with the same attitude.

  As far as me printing anything out he goes ballistic if I try to show him form the WT OWN publications. I mean stomps away and basically figuratively puts the fingers in the ears. I did get a few tidbits in. He did research and realized I was correct about the whole UN thing. But he rationalizs " imperfect men". and leaves it at that. I did finally get him to read hassans combatting mind control last year( in order to ease my mind and prove to me the JW are nothing like that...you can see where this went) and I am still seeing the subconsious effects of that dissonence bubbling up at times, which is a hope for me.

  His sleeping a lot, I am sure is depression. For one is this spring a very, very scary medical event ( which healed on it's own) that when finally diagnosed in July, all the drs said he should have been dead by now...that is not something that does not affect the psyche as well. Exacerbated by his sleeping disorder that is being treated. It was NEVER THIS bad. His disorder means any time he gets emotional, ANYTIME he will become overwhelmed with sleeiness and need to take a nap. Now, try to have a conversation about the JW with someone like that!?! This is so close to impossible I sometimes wonder if it can even be done. ( I know this is probablly too much information, and if he EVER found my username I am dead meat.) He was 13 during 1975, which also can have a HUGE effect when being raised as a JW during the time with 3 or 4x a week metings, father still an elder at the time..ect. What nightmares did he have, how is he still effected by being told he would never die? He speaks of nothing. His stock answer " I don't remember, it wasn't a big deal." Like I believe that!

  I do have his cousin in my aersonal, and I might even take the chance with his Father, but likely he won't help because he has his own marriage with his JW practicing wife as first priority. ( He faded as an elder sometime late 70's, walking out of a meeting never to return, ever) I wonder how this new fading directive from the GB will come to pass with him a super long time fader with no intention of returning. He did state to me he believes in much of what they teach which set off alarm bells with me. He could be doing the same thing as my husbnd , never addressing it and never finding out TTATT. Yet he IS baptised ( Only before marrying my husband's mother) and held a high position quickly. I did put the bug in his ear abour the UN on the one single occasion we did talk. I have no idea if he is researching but I hope he will. It might be too much for him to deal with while living with his wife.

  I used to see my hsband researching a few things things on the net ( the UN especially) last year but that has all stopped. unfortunatly.

  Thank you Daniel. He does have a psyciatrist perscribing antidepressants and sees him regulary. I am very concerned he nees talk therapy at this point and is not yet agreeing to it. he sees many Drs in fact but each has thier own "thing". The sleep DR though needs to be informed. I will go with him to this apppointment coming up. He as already neen told this days upon days in bed sounds more lke depression, which he insists he does not have.

  Not Jest yet, I have stayed highly informed and I do try to find ways to bring up publication inconsistancies. But as sagan said " he doesn't want to know" at this point.
• 

  jgnat

  I think his natural self knows it is a load of crap. Hence all the physical symptoms. It might help to put aside the JW stuff and reinforce your hopes and dreams for the future. If he starts spouting Witness stuff, try telling him to "be real", conjuring his natural self so to speak.
• 

  nugget

  Witnesses are good at placing blame and playing the guilt card. Your husbands distance and non communication is the standard response when dealing with non JWs. They are taught that everything is the fault of the non believer, hence why you were blamed for him failing to attend a meeting that he now claims is important to him.

  He needs professional help It mnight help to suggest marriage guidance to help you both with the communication difficulties so he doesn't think the issues are all onb his side. I would also suggest that you don't argue on points of doctrine as this will just lead to confrontation and no resolution. What is helpful is to discuss other cults and how they are similar to or different from the witnesses.

  It is very difficult being a non JW in a JW world, since there is no compromise, no respect for others opinions or beliefs and a very self centred attitude.
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Thanks Jgnat. Iwill try to remind myself to lind of jokingly or gently get him to knowck it off, but the issue right now is he isn't discussing anyting. anything.

  Nugget the joint marriage counciling is exactly whay we did for about a year. I let him choose the therapist himelf. ( he was thankfully Not a jw therapist) The ( Catholic) therapist who was clueless about the cult and the effects it has. At the time I was in a basic physical and emotyional breakdown due to my husnands complete lack of empathy, insistance on bringing out out WT material while reading in the bed room ( I would then leave the room) Spendiing long hours at meetings when my father was dying, I was helping my Mother take care of Dad, plus our young child, plus our dire financial situation ( which he keeps choosing to ignire by not even opening a single piece of mail, look at bills, or bank statements. ) that his extended studying and meeting times did NOT help at all. I needed his help so badly. He was also Refusing to discuss anything I might have a JW question about if i didn't agree with him or asked him hard questions. He became more agressive in his actious to me when I asked questions or disagreed with him. He became physically out of control early this year. That part is hopefully explained by the neurological findings we discovered in July. ( Physical abusiveness is very against his nature) He promised keep to going to talk therapy.Hhe stopped. I didn't push this during this very disturbing medical crisis he had all summer long. But now he needs to go back. I am finding with couples therapy, it is him that has issue with it sometimes. I have to jump on this before he decides to go to meetings again. Otherwise he will be told not to go. My husband is a hard one to figure out. He has intelligance, common sense usually, a giving heart, good father, good husband for the majority of the time, yet he is incredibally easy to be mind controlled. I wish I understood the key to his brain.

  I agree to keep the JW issues out as I have been, but if he brings it up, I am not good about letting it just drop, especially if it is a finger pointing at me. :-(

  I am formulating a plan for the discussion I let him know we now must have very soon. I will try to focus on his feelings. He is unable to express them, still. I will try to make it more obvious that he needs to trust his feelings, his thoughts and questions, his OWN questions and beliefs. He hasn't seen a bit of the July WT yet. Who knows how he wold react to it since he is one of those that doesn't realy want to learn stuff, just goes along to be "safe from armegeddon". My bet is because he IS intelligent, he knows if he actually DOES learn he will not like what he finds and cause him horrible pain of seeing an obviously false "religion" organization thsat he has believed in all his life. ( but not attended since the late 70's)

  The doctrine issue he brought up, I guess that is standard for a JW when they can't answer the question at hand, and I let it go off on a tangent which I regret. I try to stick to the examples of other organizations like the Moonies or Scientologists or even the government. The commments I make, or questions, he usually almost always agrees with. I see the look on his face when he does though. That is my sytategy now for at least a year.
• 

  Iown Mylife

  HEY there, nonjwspouse, i feel so bad for you and your husband and hope things turn around for you.

  This stupid cult wastes people's LIFE and TIME with made up problems! Don't they? Whether or not an organization is the One Channel, whether the Bible is true or not, whether Moses was a Big Giant Head or a vacuum salesman, WE today can't do anything about any of it. It really doesn't have anything to do with our reality, which is to earn a living, fix up a place to live, and take care of ourselves and our dependents.

  It's all fake problems. If we didn't have running water and fuel we'd be out hauling buckets and sawing wood. THOSE are problems! Am i right?!
• 

  notjustyet

  What if you explained how cognitive dissonance works and possibly the idea that the mind does not like change and that it will do whatever it can to not allow valid evidence to toppled the apple cart, as it were.

  Possibly give the scenario of a Mormon that wanted to know if they were in the correct religion and was wanting to look at old Mormon literature and beliefs but the Mormon was having a difficulty in mentally going against what he had been taught about not researching the critical things of the religion and how we would be encouraging him to do that that. We would share with him that he had a responsibility to power through this difficult time and confirm right or wrong whether he was in the correct religion.

  NJY
• 

  nonjwspouse

  I own, exactly. It is filled with petty crap to concentrate on. The rules are filled with idiotic issues that can severly damage a marriage with a non jw, and the relationship with his child.

  I personaly believe in God and Jesus, but my religionn is not dictating that to me. I am not threatened for voicing out a different opinion, but welcomed for a different view point. I am not threatened with emotional abuse and slandere if I decide to join another religion, and I am welcome back at any time no punishment involved.

  notjustyet. I have tried in careful words. I did get him to read hassans book which describes it quite well. I know it got to him because when he trieds to use an example to refuste it, he stops mid sentance. Then tries to change the subject, or say " but that's different". His own cognative dissonence is at work.

  I am always looking for opportunities to bring out examples of mind control in other areas ( non JW) , and he will agree.....then sometimes, if I go on and on about it, he will begin to look uncomfortable.

  Thank you all. He will be coming home tonight and we have time alone without the little one. DSo didn't expecrt this and I knoe he is seriousl dreading it. I told him we need to talk. I think I willl concnntrate on his inability to say what he feels. To dig deeper in his experienceof what has happened when he says what he feels. I wish I could go so far back as his childhood, but I doubt I can do that. Im not trained for that. If the JW subject does come up I have taken medication to keep my temper in check. I hope i wil maintain a calm voice if he says JW drone regergetartions and be able to ask nicely where those are in the Bible scriptures ( his usual excuse is that he hasen't read/learned that far yet) I will try to help find quotes for him in the NWT but I doubt he will stand for any WT or Awake.

  I like using the Mormon example.
• 

  jgnat

  Maybe ask him to make a list of all the things he is waiting an answer for. This is routine in the bible study indoctrination. Unanswered questions right through past baptism. By then the person is committed and is conditioned to tolerate inconsistencies.