You said How could God allow his children to experience so much pain because of the sin of others. God created us to be creatures who decide for themselves. God wants everyone to recognize Jesus as God in the flesh and accept Him. But not everyone is going to do that and God didn't create robots that He would control. God is capable of anything, even control robot people, but He decided to give us a choice to love and serve Him. What would be good about a relationship with a robot who acknowleges Him as Master. God wants a relationship with people that is not forced, but chosen.
How many here are still active JWs? If not.....
by Leander 35 Replies latest jw friends
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crownboy
C'mon Jesusfreak14! God didn't give us "free-will" because if he really did, we would truly be free to choose whether we wanted to worship him or not. And don't say God favouring people who worship him is a way of rewarding them, and therefore not really "punishing" those who don't worship him (like with awarding a Nobel Prize only to those who worked for it). Death is not the default state of man, according to the bible, everlasting life is the default state, and the bible clearly states that God actively punishes those who disobey him (The wages of sin is death, not the reward for not sinning is life). So since in reality God only wants us to worship him one way (he doesn't respect our "free will" choice to not worship him without punishment), then the only purpose of creating us with "free will" is to give us the ability to mess up.
If you want to say that God is somehow trying to test our loyalty, then fine, but that test is not a loving test. It's the equivalent of me placing 2 glasses of water in front of my child, one good, and one poisonous. I want to test my child to see if he is obedient, so I tell him to only drink from the good glass. If my child were to drink from the poisonous glass, that would prove that he was rebellious. He made a "free will" choice to disobey me. Sure, I could have made it impossible for him to have drank the poisoned water, but how would I have known if he was truly obedient to me or simply doing something because he didn't have a choice? I don't want my child to simply be some "robot" following my orders, the only way I can truly know if my child loves me is to put this test before him. Any judge would understand my story, right?
I really liked this article discussing the problems of "free will".
. http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/whybad.html
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Question of Evil Remains Unanswered
by David B. McCalmont
When people who believe in the existence of a kind, all-knowing, and all-powerful god are asked why such a god permits so much cruelty, torture, murder, and war on Earth, the usual answer is that god did not wish to create men and women who were automatons, that s/he wanted human beings to have free will. In exercise of that free will, believers argue, human beings often choose to be violent, cruel, and warlike. God could not prevent this, they say, without making human beings into automatons.Not so. An all-knowing god would have known in advance that, if s/he created people like Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, or Jack the Ripper, these people would personally, or by inciting others, inflict injustice, violence, torture and death upon other human beings. To prevent this, god need only have refrained from creating these evil individuals. God had the power to do that without in any way preventing other human beings from exercising their free will.
You and I do not feel that we have been made into automatons because our federal and state governments forbid us to murder, rape, or maim other people, or steal or destroy their property. On the contrary, we still have plenty of leeway for exercise of our free will. Similarly, human beings would not have been turned into automatons if the alleged god had placed the same kind of reasonable limits upon their exercise of free will.
Consider also the terrible suffering which is inflicted upon human beings by hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, and drought. These painful calamities are obviously not caused by our exercise of free will. Yet, the alleged kind, all-knowing, and all- powerful god permits them to occur. This is an additional reason why the asserted need to give human beings free will cannot serve as an excuse for the pain and suffering endured by millions of people in this unhappy world.
Sometimes the people killed or maimed by an accident or natural disaster turn out to have been criminals. When this happens, believers happily proclaim that their misfortune was arranged by god as a punishment -- even though millions of other evil-doers escape such godly retribution.
On the other hand, if some of the victims turn out to have been persons of admirable character, believers then assert that they died because they were SO good that god desired their company up in Heaven!
By this mental legerdemain, believers can cling to their precarious faith. But people with common sense are not impressed.
NOTE: It has also been of great interest to me that those who experience a close call in a catastrophe, the survivors of plane crashes, etc., are the source of great praise to the almighty when those who perish in these same disasters do not evoke any blame to this same deity.
So you're saying that the suffering baby is going through pain because of his sins? If it's a result of his parents "sins" is it fair for that baby to suffer also? Shouldn't our "suffering" be comensurate with our "badness" (if one chooses to believe that God should punish beings who were born with a proclivity to do bad, unlike Adam & Eve who were supposedly perfect)?The bottom line is, if the situation you describe is true, God does not care about our "free will", because he only desires us to behave in one manner (his way).
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c5
Hello!
~~~when did you leave?
In 1998. I was raised a witness. Was babtised at 13 years old, quit school and pioneered for years. I gradually stopped attending meetings over a period of a few years. I disassociated myself and have had no regrets since.
~~~What prompted you to doubt/leave the organization?
The plain fact that I never found out for myself if the JW's doctrines were true or not, I always took the GB's and elders word for it and never questioned that they spoke the truth until I started to feel the ostracism because I became inactive. I thought to myself: arent the "weak" supposed to recieve extra help? I thought that the scriptures admonished us to support those that needed help. I was ignored and looked down upon because of my inactivity. EVen the elders promised to regularly visit me to encourage, but they only did once! Once in about 5 years time. I felt that I did not matter any more and that was the first sign to me that perhaps not all things were right in the organization. I then started to examine my doubts that I always pushed aside. I found out that the JW interpretation of the Bible was not accurate, and eventually found out for myself that the Bible, no matter what translation or interpretation, is not necesarily true.
Leaving the JW's has truly opened my mind. I now examine things in search of truth, not with a specific defensive agenda in my mind. I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is just a book made up by man.
I am a very spiritual person, I just believe in my own way. I do not believe in God and have no problem finding fulfillment and happiness in my life.
Never let anyone make you feel bad for your beliefs, religious or not. This is your journey, and your conclusions are your own, keep an open mind and be proud!
~~~~For those who have already left how did you go about doing it?
Once I made up my mind that I wanted no further association with the JW's, I wrote my letter of dissassociation. I realize that that is the route that they want you to take if you want to leave, but I also respect others that leave in thier own way too. I called up the one elder that I was closest to as a person, and told him I had something important I needed to discuss with him. He came over to my house. I started it out by being very blunt and to the point, with no regrets or hesitation. I said that I wish to dissassociate myself immediately and that I had my letter written. I gave it to him to read. He accepted it and then asked if this is what I wanted to do for sure. I said yes, no doubt in my mind. He then got all sad and teary eyed and said that he would miss me. I said I understood and would miss him too. We hugged (in front of my x-husband) and he left.
I got a call from him a few days later, and he asked again if this decision was final. I said yes, I did not want to change my mind. He then told me that 2 other brothers were on the phone as well, a 3 way telephone conversation. He then asked the other 2 elders if they were convinced that I was serious about my decision. They both said yes, they believed me. He then concluded the call.
That was the last I heard from anyone that was a JW.
It bothered me at first that I lost all my friends. I had no other friends than the JW's. It was difficult. But, another sister wanted to leave, and I had the priviliage of assisting her to follow her goals in leaving.
I now have many non-JW friends that are very good people. I was scared at first, because I still had some residule brainwashing from the JW's about "worldly" people. I have now realized that they had a doomsday attitude about everything, and that this world is as positive or negative as WE ourselves CHOOSE to preceive it.
Since I have left the JW's , I am a very positive person. I look back and still am amazed at how negative my life and my former thinking was.I wish you very well in your upcoming choices with leaving the JW'S. You are not alone, and there is much support here!
Take care!
CariIf I fail or if I suceed, at least I'll live as I believe.~~W.Houston
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og
Leander: Man, you are where I was a year and a half ago. I knew that not only had I been a chump for listening to the WS, but also realized that the Bible is just a book, and certainly doesn't come from God, unless He has Alzheimers. Some thoughts:
Leave quick, or fade away? - I met with the elders a few times, exchanged letters with the society, got a braindead response, and stopped going to meetings. I was fairly prominent, and eager to live free, so eventually a committee was formed accusing me of apostasy. I met with them once and turned in a DA letter and that was it. I don't believe in fading away, mainly because you aren't going to save yourself much pain, you're just going to spread it out. By DAing, there's a chance you can do some good, get some people thinking. If you get DFed, the assumption will be that you committed immorality. A clean break is good, good for you and potentially good for others.
Re: the Bible - If you still feel conflicted about this, try reading "Who Wrote the Bible?" a clear explanation of the documentary hypothesis. Settled any doubts of mine that it's just an old book, with some good parts and some foolish parts - and some evil, bigoted parts.
Re: wife - Well, we're still married, but it's not perfect. But it never would have been, as soon as I became an unbeliever. Look at it this way: maybe you can save her by your example. In a weird way, a lot of the reasoning that gets applied to you when you're becoming a witness applies even more now. If you take a stand, you might help her. Are there kids involved? If so, you have even more reason to stand firm.
Re: friends - I built up my relationships at work, discovering that I worked with some really cool people. I did this first, and it helped a lot. I have also met with a therapist about a dozen times, and that has been great. It's worth doing, imo. I had a lot of depression and bitterness to work thru - I guess I still am. I also looked up some friends that I had dropped when converting - they've been great.
Good luck. The only way out is thru, and it does hurt at first.
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patio34
Hi Leander,
I was a JW for 28 years. Almost exactly one year ago, i had a light-bulb moment while watching the Disney film Dinosaurs. It struck me that there is NO WAY a loving creator could have created and set in motion such a violent way of living. I decided that day to investigate evolution myself in science books, not WTBS books!
I never went to another meeting as it seemed far too duplicitous to read "unauthorized" science books and attend meetings. I had a very difficult time at meetings due to a health problem i have, so it was verrrry easy to stop going.
I ran across many things since then that have made the whole theology thing fall like a house of cards. One of the 1st ones was Gen. 1:30 that states all creation ate green vegetation. The writers had no inkling that such a thing as dinosaurs ever lived. Their violence and predatory way of life preceded by millions of years Adam's so-called sin.
I also read books by archeologists about how the Hebrews' religion was a borrowing from surrounding religions.
And i've read books by (gasp!) Bible critics and scholars. Anyone who is willing to examine the facts cannot believe the Bible as written by God and entirely true. Anyone who claims to believe the Bible as literal is simply ignorant of a vast array of facts.
I also read Ray Franz's books that my sister, Waiting, sent to me. But, to me, as Carmel said and a former great poster here, JanH, if one is to scrutinize the JWs, the Bible should also be scrutinized. After all, why accept such a thing as being the "Word of God," just because it says so and others believe it? And, as another poster, aptly pointed out, it should be able to withstand other forms of investigations other than the true believers.
It's not at all sad for me to have left (i'm just an inactive, walk-away JW) as i've stopped living in a fairy tale. I've had a reverse of the usual sadness of being shunned if i'm "found out." It angers me that they claim the right to do that to another human. However, i don't have a mate in the JWs, only one son. One of my sons left with me. I have a hellion of a daughter who, ironically, is studying now with the JWs!! Go figure. I actually have a little pity on them.
All the best to you.
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patio34
Hey Leander, can you put off any of your missing meetings etc. onto depression? I'd say all of us have some depression from being a JW for any amount of time!
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roybatty
Mister Biggs, I'm not sure that "every situation" is really all that differnt. I have read Leander's posts for a few months now and I've seen the same thing over and over (including my own exp.). You know what it comes down to? You have to make a stand, plain and simple. I agree for some it's easier than others. Heck, some like my brother don't have the balls to make a stand and I find that sad. I find it sad and "living a lie" when someone who knows that not only it isn't "the troof" but doesn't even really believe in the Bible, stand before a group of people and give talks. Maybe that's a bit rough but it's the truth. Leaner, do you feel good or bad when you're writing the talk? Do you feel good or bad when you are giving? Why continue to do something that tears you up inside? Enough is enough. I'm not saying run to the elders and say "I'm against the WT" but hey, stand up for what you believe in.
My story? In short, I was praticaly born a JW, did the pioneer thing, married a pioneer sis, became an elder at the ripe old age of 27. It was then that I saw the real double-standard and noticed that the Society is just a business. Nothing more. A business built on empty promises. I stepped down as an elder and made known my feelings. Did I pay a price? Oh yeah, DA'd and wife divorced me. But you know what? I haven't been happier in my life. Why? Because I did the right thing. I look back on I think to myself "why was I so worried what the other elders would think, they're just little men." Or "why was I so worried what my JW family would think?" If their love is so conditional, I can do without it and find those who love me for being ME and not a JW. It's powerful stuff my friend. A whole new world awaits you (as corny as that sounds, it's true.)
If you want to know more, please feel free tp e-mail me. -
lv4fer
I'm doing a quiet fade. I've been fading for about 8 months. My husband and kids are coming w/me. I realized it wasn't the "truth" when I opened my eyes to all the "lies". I started reading the bible and prayed w/o any WT literature and the Holy Spirit opened up a new world to me and my family. I couldn't be happier although as I fading and I know loosing some friendships I've made being a witness and now am loosing, I'm embarking on a new life and allowing myself new friends based not on wether they are a witness or not but truly what type of person they are. I am now a "Christian" in the truest sense and for the first time in my life I understand what Jesus meant when he said "My yoke is kindly and light". As a witness you can never experience that because their yoke is sooo burndensome!
I encourage you to study the bible w/o WT lit with your wife. Show her all the discrepencies explain that the True God doesn't have discrepencies and doesn't prophecy falsly therefore it cannot be new light... they were just making their best guess and it was wrong and they (G.B.) are no one special. They don't have any special line of communication with God, neither does the Pope.
"The reward for conformity was that everyone liked you except yourself."
Rita Mae Brown
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rmayer32
I'm sure a lot of people here have similar stories, its a shame that this religion seems to do more tearing down than building up.
It is truly a shame. So many families torn apart because of their useless mind controlling ways and ridiculous and I will say unscriptural shunning.-Rick
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roykaye
The saddest thing in many of these posts is the fact that those who leave the Borg actually throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water. They abandon faith in Jesus and the Bible. I mean just because Bill Clinton bonked Monica does not mean that something is wrong with the institution of the Presidency or the American constitution.
I think WTS is a sinister organisation, set up to make people lose their faith in Christ and the Bible. Well just shows what happens when the Holy Spirit is not in operation.