Trevor and the 1% Armageddon

by Duncan 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Duncan
    Duncan

    What’s the Central Belief of Jehovah’s Witnesses? The very core of the religion?

    Some people, AlanF for example, have at times suggested that it is nothing more or less than “We (WTBTS) speak for God” . The Watchtower claims to be the sole channel of divine instruction for mankind and everything flows from that. As a consequence, it doesn’t really matter what the doctrines may actually be from time to time, just as long as you believe the latest “New Light” you’ll be a good JW. Their claim to spiritual authority is the bedrock belief.

    I can see the logic in saying that, but I think I disagree, to this extent: For the average JW the very idea that there should even be “someone speaking for God” at all in our modern-day, only flows from another, deeper, more fundamentally-held idea. The idea that we are in the Last Days, and Armageddon is coming.

    That’s what gives rise to the need for an FDS, for a preaching work, an Organisation, and everything. That’s what gives any of it any point. Armageddon is the core belief.

    You might argue here that the Armageddon doctrine is only there in the first place because it is something taught by the Watchtower, so it can’t be THE core belief, just one of the teachings devised by the WTBTS, so you’re back to Alan’s position again.

    To which I’d reply, just see what would happen if they ever attempted to dismantle the last days/Armageddon doctrine. How long would they last? Not very long! With no Armageddon coming, there would really be no point to the whole JW-religion.

    Anyway, whether you buy that proposition or not, that was my long-winded way of saying that, in this post, it’s Armageddon that I want to talk about.

    It was the sheer brutality of the whole Armageddon-idea as taught by JW’s that was one of the chief causes of my stumbling from the faith, all those years ago. It is a childlike (in the sense that young children can be thoughtless and cruel) and simple-minded concept. “Bad people in the world? Kill ‘em! Kill ‘em all! Men, women, kids – kill the lot of them!”

    *******

    I once had the misfortune, many years ago, of sharing an office at my place of work with an individual who was the local-area organiser for the British National Front party. For those of you not in the UK, the NF is pretty much indistinguishable from out-and-out Nazis. Extremely far-right politically, they generally hate all foreigners, but especially blacks and Jews. They want them all “sent home where they came from.”

    This chap – Trevor - was a hate-filled bully of a man, whose primary mode of conversation was sloganeering, and who would seek to provoke arguments with every one he came into contact with. He was deeply, deeply stupid and was eventually sacked from his job (he did bought ledger) for his incessant anti-social behaviour.

    Sitting across a desk from him over the course of a year or so, I endured many a long afternoon listening to Trevor tell me what was wrong with the country and how to fix it. This was in the mid-seventies and one topic he returned to every now and again was the Irish question.

    Then, as now, Northern Ireland was a thorn in the side of the British body politic, especially since the IRA had recently been so active on the British mainland with pub bombings in the towns of Guildford and Birmingham.

    “ Duncan, you want to know how to solve the Irish Problem? You really want to know?”

    I really didn’t want to hear his entirely-predictable nonsense views, but made the mistake of momentarily looking up at him, so he continued.

    “It’ll take nerve, and courage. ‘Course, none of this lot have got any, not since Churchill anyway, but the British soldier is the finest in the world, we just need to use him right!”

    “More soldiers?” Me, having given up pretending to ignore him.

    “Nah, not more soldiers. Not …. as such . But we need to Deal With Things”

    “ Deal with things?”

    “ Yeah. In a single night. It might take the whole of the Army, but it could be done. You’d have to keep it Top Secret of course, but - in one blow - we could solve things. For ever, for all future generations…”

    I was used to Trevor’s idiotic opinions, and pretty much immune to their shock value, but even I started to wonder about the spectacular scale of the madness about to come.

    “ In a single night… if you had prepared right…. knew where everyone was …. accounted for them all… In a single night …. a bullet in the head of every single Irishman, every last one, well, say, over the age of sixteen. …Must be done in a single night though, too many complications otherwise …In a single night - problem solved!”

    And he believed it.

    No consideration was given to how evil in itself his plan was. He didn’t worry about the effect such a monstrous act would actually have on the people of Ireland, the people of the UK, of the soldiers actually asked to do the killing. No complications or considerations about the massive impracticality of carrying-out such a plan were allowed to taint the purity of the idea in his head. You couldn’t argue with him.

    I haven’t seen Trevor in almost thirty years, and it still isn’t long enough.

    *******

    Apart from the fact that it is a simple-minded, unthinking, violent-out-lash, stupid solution to things, not in any way befitting an all-wise, all-powerful deity, my most fundamental objection to the whole Armageddon idea is that it is so unnecessary.

    Yes. Unnecessary.

    Just, for a moment, for the sake of argument, allow that it is the case that there is a Jehovah, who was challenged by Satan, and these are the Last Days, just like the Watchtower teaches.

    The main reason that most of the world – the part that is non-JW – does not believe in that scenario is not that everyone is a evil-possessed Satan lover, it is that they have never been offered any convincing evidence that it is true.

    All Jehovah God needs to do is provide, by some reasonable means, something that could be taken by reasonable people as convincing evidence. I don’t care what it is, a short statement from the Heavens maybe. It only needs to be a few sentences. As long as it’s unmistakeably from God – who in the world would oppose him?

    “Everyone!” – goes up the Witness cry! “The whole world is lying in the power of the Wicked One!” But that is surely, self-evidently false.

    An act, or sign, unmistakeably originating from God, would profoundly affect the way people view things. There may even be, for all I know, a dedicated hard-core percentage of humankind determined to oppose him, but surely that would be a vanishingly small minority. Most reasonable people would unfailingly want to be on the side of God. Once they knew, unmistakeably, what side that was.

    And this remarkable transformation could be achieved by a few Divine words. Millions don’t need to die. Nobody has to break out in boils or have their tongues rot in their heads. God doesn’t need to send Earthquakes, Tidal Waves, Pestilence, Wars. He doesn’t have to blow up bridges and knock down sky-scrapers, crash trains, burn up families in wrathful fireballs, or cause schools, hospitals and churches to collapse upon the people inside them. It’s all so unnecessary.

    ******

    Okay, as a final thought – let’s allow that there ARE wicked people in the world, who really do need to die – violently – in order to “Uphold Jehovah’s Sovereignty” or whatever it is supposed to prove. I’ll be the first to admit there are evil people in the world. I didn’t much care for Trevor, as it happens.

    What percentage of people would that be? 90% 10%? 5%?

    How about if Jehovah decided that he really DID want to visit his Old-Testament Armageddon upon us, with all the rotting-tongues and pestilence and Hollywood-style special effects? But, what if he just killed the world’s worst 1% of sinners – with the whole works, lightning, explosions, blood?

    Wouldn’t that be just as good, from a Vindication point of view? 1% is still MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people. Lots of deaths. Everyone would know someone. Wouldn’t 1% do the trick?

    Imagine if 1% of the world’s population – the most evil 1% - died “in a single night” at the hand of Jehovah – wouldn’t that be just as good a Witness? Wouldn’t the other 99% thereafter be the most theocratic, upstanding, God-fearing, moral, loving people (even if they hadn’t been all those things before)?

    Why not a 1% Armageddon?

    Or is Jehovah, at heart, just like Trevor? It’s got to be “every last one” dead.

    Duncan.

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    Good post Dunc.

    I once put my hand up in a watchtower , where everyone had been saying how they looked froward to armageddon as it would put an end to this world and all their aches and pains, and said it was wrong to wish 6 billion people dead just so we could live a comfortable life.
    With that they quickly skipped on to the next point.

    The witnesses don't want to think about what they're really wishing for.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Duncan,

    I remember well discussing a similar issue with an entrenched JW CO many years ago.

    My argument was that in reality the amount of genuinely evil and irredeemable people who are causing most of the planets problems at any one time, could probably all be accommodated on the Isle-Of-Wight with enough room left over even for Phil Collins ego.

    Most people are decent at heart and only want to be left in peace, have a reasonable standard of living and a sense of security in their lives. They are often embroiled in troubles, not due to their own nature, but by the life thrust on them by others.

    Trevor may like the idea of killing and harming people, but I suspect he is the minority. I once worked out from the WTS own crime figures that 98.6% of Americans *never* commit a crime in their entire lives.

    Anyway, getting back to the CO. His argument *eventually* after much muddling through slogans and generalities, is that Jehovah has the right to kill the ignorant. He quoted 2 Thess 9:6-9 which includes an ambiguous phrase on which any lunatic, including the ‘Trevor’ look-alike’s within the WTS, can float common-sense out of sight.

    6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9

    So if a few hundred thousand decent people get caught in the crossfire, then presumably we need feel no sorrow as they obviously ‘did not know God’. If they had they would have ducked at the right moment.

    You see Duncan, when indiscriminate slaughter is on the cards, you must think of the end product, a bright shining new earth, where the truly ignorant can practice their insanity in peace and security….lol

    Kindest regards - HS

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Interesting topics, Duncan.

    To a certain extent you're right about Armageddon Real Soon being a fundamental JW doctrine. However, I'm convinced that the JWs are in the process of going mainstream, and so they'll be giving up on a number of cherished doctrines including ARS because their ARS is getting kicked by reality. I've talked to a number of observant JWs about this, and many agree that they pay little attention to the Society's rantings about ARS. It's evident in that many JWs are preparing for their lives in the way that normal people do.

    The JW religion today is much more of a cultural thing than a religion to a large percentage of JWs. As such, it needs no doctrines like ARS to keep going, because it has already built up enough momentum to do it irrespective of any particular doctrine. Thus, ARS and anything else perceived by society as a whole as wierd will gradually disappear. Even what I call the Fundamental Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses -- that JW leaders speak for God -- will get toned down. I remain convinced, though, that this is today the fundamental doctrine, because you could change any other JW doctrine and the braindead among the faithful could justify remaining JWs. But give up on this one, and even the most braindead would wonder why they ought not be part of some other religion.

    I think that the JWs have a good deal of justification in making claims that their God will someday "wipe the earth clean" by killing most all of humanity. That's why I reject the notion that this "God of the Bible" exists. He's a monster, and if there happens to be some sort of Supreme Creator, I cannot see how it could be a monster.

    AlanF

  • detective
    detective

    Wouldn't it just about kill the fun if only 1% of humanity perished? I mean, there's nothing special about being among the surviving 99% of humanity! And it's about being special, isn't it?

    You'd have to turn to evil just to have a special mission in life! Bummer.

    Good post, duncan.

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Duncan,

    My favorite 'older woman' in the congregation -- drove fast, buried several (JW) husbands, and was very good at boundaries, PRAYED she would not be alive to see Armageddon, because it would be so awful to watch. Rest in peace, Lila!

    I have to agree with AlanF that while Armageddon Real Soon is fundamental, We Speak for God is primary JW doctrine. For me, it certainly was the realization that the GB did NOT have any special "pipeline" to God that destroyed my faith -- in them, perhaps in any god at all -- and led to my eventual disassociation from the WTBTS. When it dawned on me with the 1995 change in the 'generation' teaching that the GB had no more insight than the leaders of any other Christian religion I was left breathless in shock, pain and dismay!

    I remember a 'worldly' friend in Canada asking me how I would feel if Armageddon never came. I said, I would not look back on my life in regret, because the Witness way of life was good and beneficial regardless. (I must look her up someday! lol) Other hurts from the 'loving' congregants and doubts about the blood policy had been supressed, but the shattering of this one, basic, primary belief -- that I was a member of an organization that was God's special property, the only TRUE religion -- was something that shook me to the core.

    Other fundamental religions also teach Armageddon Real Soon (will YOU be "Left Behind?") as part of their Bible-based doctrine. ONLY the Witnesses are arrogant enough to teach that EVERYTHING out of their mouths has been divinely communicated to their Governing Body in some unique and special way.

    And ONLY the GB has such a long and dismal record of false prophecies,
    too.

    outnfree

    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden

  • Duncan
    Duncan

    Alan,

    they'll be giving up on a number of cherished doctrines including ARS because their ARS is getting kicked by reality
    LOL Alan.

    I wonder, actually, if this has something to do with the population-mix among the JW’s, I mean the proportion of first-generation converts vs the nth generation born-ins.

    In a place like the USA with virtually no recent growth from field service, the proportion of first-generation is probably low. And, I would guess they’ll be more tolerant of letting an idea like ARS go.

    In other parts of the world – the third world areas where there has been lots of recent growth - I think they’ll have trouble getting rid of ARS because it is the only thing that gives the rest of it any meaning for a first-generation convert.

    I must admit though, in writing my post, my mind was on the JW community that I grew up in, in the UK in the sixties, which was overwhelmingly first-gen converts with only a few born-ins.

    So, maybe this issue ARS or NonARS will be a possible global schism flashpoint? (another one of my pet theories)

    Regards

    Duncan

  • 4horsemen
    4horsemen

    Duncan,

    You wrote "An act, or sign, unmistakeably originating from God, would profoundly affect the way people view things. There may even be, for all I know, a dedicated hard-core percentage of humankind determined to oppose him, but surely that would be a vanishingly small minority. Most reasonable people would unfailingly want to be on the side of God. Once they knew, unmistakeably, what side that was."

    Not certain about that. Few thoughts...

    First of all, what sort of sign? Take Jesus. In the Bible I think only 4 people ever raised someone from the dead. Granted, one of them was a pile of bones (Elijah/Elisha?), Jesus, and Peter. What if TODAY, you saw someone raise someone from the DEAD? Real death. Lazarus decomposing in shroud type death. Would you belive? If so, why dont you believe now because Jesus already did that (allegedly). Now I wasnt there personally, but the account can either be true (fact) or false (lie, fable). But not both. Someone asked an interesting question thread regarding whether Satan can create life. If he can, and I was him, I would do it just to divert and confuse humans. If he cant because God "governs" life force authority, why dont you believe already? Why do you need another sign? Another problem is in other "holy" works there are similar stories. Like Pilate said, "What is Truth?"

    Second of all how could you know the sign maker was God? See Satan vs Job. Jobs wife thought it was a sign from God. Even Job wasnt too sure. The least of the angels is far, far beyond man. Yet no so far above as to take on bodies and have sex with women. Hmm. Anyway, their power would seem 'godlike' But reduce the scale. Say, you were a gunsmith with machinist insight and could craft bullets and machine guns of today back in Israels time. Might not need those drums at Jericho.

    Third point is I think there is something in man that resists, call it what you will, but I call it gods civilization. I find professional boxing a case in point. To me it is compelling not for the athletic spectacle but rather to observe the crowd. Men, women, all races, all ages, religions, etc react, cheer, for two men to beat each other up. Hopefully to unconsciousness. But if not blood will do. We compete independently. And competition is not always pretty. If not physically, then socially, monetarily, intellectually, in every way imaginable. Distinctions create division. The WTBS many times has referred to the Men of Old coming back to rule as "princes" Moses was an interesting guy, probably worthy of being a prince, but I tell you what, I would never bend my knee to him. That sentiment alone is probably a death sentence. I recall when I was about 16 an Elder gave a talk regarding the "New Order" where they would "learn war no more" and then drew a parallel to some kid playing violent video games learning war. Do you really want to live in a world where the only video games are on needlpoint? Or have someone else dictate/determine what you do in life?

    "Brother Duncan you are going to be a construction worker for the time being. Start bulldozing those bodies in a mass grave, while I a "prince" pick out my mansion like property, I mean my humble abode. Fear not! This is Gods arrangement" Does that sit well with you? Even IF that is Gods arrangement?

    Finally, why would you want to be on gods side? To live? Because he is "right"? Or it is our destiny because he is the "Creator"? OR is it because he is the most powerful and could protect/give us what he/you thought we needed/wanted without all this hassle we call "life". Bills, $$$, crime, pollution, etc.

    Doleing out signs, life, items, in exchange for behavior and loyalty is bribery. You should serve your god because you want to and you find your life better for it. But read that sentence again. Isnt that self serving anyway? Pretty much.

  • 4horsemen
    4horsemen

    Good thread Duncan,

    Got a little sidetracked but regarding The Big One (armageddon). What happens to a failed sign? How long can a true believer be a member when life rejects your theories? 1995 Awake masthead obliteration was remarkable in that it was a WTBS admission that "1914 generation" was a crock. Wont matter though. JW's have enough steam to chug along to 2014. By then you'd have to be 100 at least. They will have to be more mainstream though. Simply no choice. Hard core fanatic fringe simply does not have the financial resources to fund them. Maybe they can sell some of their real estate holdings but in the end, I dont think JW's will be distinguishable from any other religion. Their only mantra of distinction today is that they are Gods channel, his mouthpiece. But how long can memorial numbers for annointed remain about 8000? It has INCREASED since I left and that was 10+ years ago.

    Also, what sort of lesson is The Big One? Sheep live, goats die. Whats the point? Only the good get the lesson. Better lesson for the goats would be like Israel wandering the desert for 40 years. Too generous for God I suppose.

  • trevor
    trevor

    Duncan,

    I wasn't there, I didn't do it, I wouldn't dare!

    Trevor

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