by simwitness 46 Replies latest watchtower bible
been wondering about this lately...
What proof (outside the bible, of course) do we have for the "historical Jesus"?
In my earlier days (post JW to "born again christian") I remember reading that the one thing that differentiates Christianity vs. "all the others" was that we had secular historical proof that there was a man that was called jesus, who died on a cross and was resurrected.
Now I am wondering just what that proof is/was?
Any thoughts?
Unfortunately, revdrjohnson's answer is about as good as it gets, especially as far as the resurrection goes, or any miraculous events, for that matter. Weird, you'd think the miraculous stuff would have made an impression.
About the most compelling evidence is that...
The Dead Sea scrolls, which record in some detail the events of the world in the time and (relative) place of the gospels, manage to completely omit any reference to him. Or, even bother to name any of his apostles. Or the beginnings of the christian movement (the scrolls run till about 70 CE). Certainly they don't record any miracles occurring in Jerusalem at the time (great earthquakes? curtains in the temple being rent in two? dead rising from their tombs?)
IOW, there is no secular historical evidence he existed, and, in fact, of the historical evidence we DO have of the period, the state of the world could not be described as anything out of the ordinary.
Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana
Schweitzer, Albert - The Quest of the Historical JesusOnline English text of the 1906 book on the historical Jesus by Albert Schweitzer, who held the position that Jesus was a failed eschatological prophet.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/schweitzer/
Quests of The Historical JesusDocuments Albert Schweitzer's "The Quest of The Historical Jesus" and Bultmann's response to the eschatological paradigm of the New Testament.
http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/pearson/seminar/js2.html
Historical Jesus TheoriesSummarizes the views of contemporary scholars on the historical Jesus. Includes John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, Hyam Maccoby, Burton Mack, Robert Eisenman, and others.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
Search for the Historical Jesus: Past and PresentProvides an overview of efforts dating back to the Enlightenment to uncover the historic roots of Jesus Christ.
http://www-relg-studies.scu.edu/netcours/rs011/sess16/smith_hj.htm
Proving the Historical JesusArticle makes note of writers of the first three centuries who mention Christ and any event in the New Testament. Read about the Caiaphas cave.
http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html
Virtual Office of Dr. W. L. Craig - Historical JesusSeries of articles focuses on historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/historical.html
New Testament Gateway - Historical JesusContains a guide to resources, discussions, and articles pertaining to the study of the historical Jesus.
http://www.ntgateway.com/Jesus/
Refrigerium Early Christian Web SiteLearn about current research on the historical Jesus and find articles about Orthodox Christianity, Gnosticism and the Book of Q.
http://www.definingmoment.com/ric/refrigerium/
Jesus Christ - Religion-OnlineContains the complete text of a set of lectures by New Testament scholar Martin Dibelius about the significance of the historical Jesus.
http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showbook?item_id=1474
Bultmann, Rudolf - Religion-OnlineFeatures the complete text of Bultmann's biblical interpretation of the historical Jesus.
http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showbook?item_id=426
Westar Institute - The Jesus SeminarDescribes the process used to determine authenticity in debates of over aspects of the historical Jesus.
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Jesus_Seminar/jesus_seminar.html
Christology BibliographyContains an extensive bibliography of Christology resources covering the historical Jesus and New Testament portrayals of Christ.
http://camellia.shc.edu/theology/Christology.htm
New Testament Gateway, TheComprehensive link collection of resources includes categories such as translations,ancient world, historical, Jesus, and art.
http://www.ntgateway.com/
Allen, Charlotte - National Review, The Human ChristRead this 1998 review of "The Human Christ: The Search for the Historical Jesus." The book seeks to explore cultural interpretations of the icon.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_natrvw/m1282/n13_v50/20977859/p1/article.jhtml
This was a fairly simple search and should give some good links to make up your own mind.
Hey six, I thought you were the hysterical jesus!?
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
I was, valis, but I had a hysterectomy.
Valis, did YOU read those?
The New Testament refers to the High Priest Caiaphas. Records of the Temple of Jerusalem where destroyed and history has not been able to verify that Caiaphas, like Christ, existed. If no evidence existed of Caiaphas when the New Testament was embraced by the Christians of the second century, then it would have been a fact lost to history. But now, 1,950 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, a public works project building a water park in November 1990 accidentally uncovered an ancient burial cave. The inscription in the burial chamber was that of the Caiaphas family...Though the New Testament has many historical errors, the fact is that many of its points have been proven historically correct
So, what, if one person the NT recorded but couldn't be found in the historical record was later found, this is valid for proof?
How? So, no records existed of Caiaphas before except in the NT. Big deal. Did he resurect the dead? Did turn water into wine? Did he walk on water? Did he start one of the largest religious movements in human history?
So, why does not record exist of the person purported to have done all of the above?
The entire Caiaphas thing is a red herring the size of which herrings don't usually grow to.
And, this is good, too. Continuing from above:
The debate over the divinity of Christ may never end, but historical evidence has become more supportive of the fact that Jesus can be proved historically to have lived, to have been a dominant figure during his lifetime and of a major concern to the establishment of the Temple and of Rome.
What? Where? When did they present proof? They used typical WT-reasoning here...'Well, this person could only be proved to exist by reading the bible, then later, science caught up. Obviously, this is proof the bible is always right...' [8>]
Reading through a few of your links, I can't find any reasoning more compelling than the above. To top it off, several of the articles admit in the start 'we believe Jesus existed, and here we will prove it'. Hardly unbiased.
Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana
Xander, I didn't read them all, as I'm not terribly interested if Jesus was alive or not, but I thought looking at some of that might help sim come up w/an informed opinion one way or another. Yes, I know some of it IS crazy, but that is important to consider as well.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
Sorry, my bad. Misread the intent of your post.
I'd argue, though, that if those articles represent the most compelling case that can be made (and they are actually better than many I've heard), then I can't see how anyone could still believe.
I mean, it's not like we don't have any kind of record about what when on in this part of the world during this period of time. We do, and someone running around raising the dead and starting a new religion surely would have gotten front page news SOMEWHERE.
Telling, too, is that the gospels - the ONE AND ONLY account of the life and ministry of Jesus - didn't even start being recorded until decades after he died - when many of the 'eyewitnesses' would be dead.
Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana
For those who do not believe in Jesus, no amount
of proof will convince you, and for those who believe, no proof
is necessary.
