Just another day in cheery Israel

by bboyneko 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Xander,

    You said,

    The presence of the existing government in my example is incidental - the point is that the Israelites have no claim to the land other than their religious teachings (which tell us, btw, that they never had a claim to the land before, either, but killed and enslaved the previous inhabitants of it to take it).
    Well, given the fact that most of the Arab inhabitants are also RECENT transplants I'd say the jewish immigrants have as much a claim to the land as do the so called Palestinians. (By the way, until the War of Independence the Jews were the ones called Palestinians, the Arabs were called that, Arabs).

    Abraham's claim to the land was the the purchase of the cave in which he buried Sarah. The present day Jews have an even better claim, MOST of the land they declared a country in 1948 had been bought and paid for.

    The Palestinians (the Arab ones) were offered a piece of land as a country, the better of the two, and they rejected it in order to try to claim the whole pie. As was pointed out, almost no Arabs were forcefully displaced in the 1948 war. Most of the "displaced" Arabs were encouraged to leave by their Arab "Brothers" who, in declaring war on the new nation of Israel, promised to rid the land of the Jewish inhabitants. No mention is EVER made of the Jewish inhabitants being dislocated by the Arabs in the areas of the British Mandate snatched by Jordan and Egypt. Nor was there EVER a cry for a Palestinian homeland when Egypt and Jordan controled the West Bank and Gaza.
    Further, Xander, you said,

    Giving someone a stretch of land that displaces current residents (no matter how many, no matter if self-governed or not) based solely on their religious teachings that 'god gave them this land' and that they had invaded and occupied it once before, is NOT something the UN should have done.
    I agree with this statement in principal. The Arabs invaded and claimed a lot of land for themselves in 1948. However before that the Arab and Jewish Population of Palestine was about the same. Israel would NOT have launched into the West Bank and Gaza in 67 had a)the Palestinians founded a homeland in the West Bank and Gaza, and B) had the Palestinians not used this area to launch terrorist attacks on Israel.

    Remember, there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in modern "palestine" just as there were always Arabs there too. The Jews were the first that got around to forming their own country, should they be penalized for that?

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Back up top, it deserves more comment.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • teejay
    teejay

    Abusers become abusive.

    Victims of a holocaust (or their immediate descendants) perpetrate a holocaust on others.

    What else is new? Humans never learn.

  • Valis
    Valis
    Remember, there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in modern "palestine" just as there were always Arabs there too. The Jews were the first that got around to forming their own country, should they be penalized for that?

    Hmmm...well that word modern has somehow escaped the Israeli government. Particularly when it comes to the concept of a UN fact finding mission, or investigative team. The former Yugoslav states had no choice in who investigated, reported, and made descisions about what is and isn't a massacre. I guess if you are in charge of Jerusalem, the holiest city or region on earth, you get to pick and choose who your judges are. What a crock of shit!!! So the jews form their own country, that's great and would have never happened if it weren't for the rest of the world helping them escape certain annhilation at the hand of Hitler/Stalin ,but clearly wasn't good enough. Did I mention no thanks to the allied forces, humility, or realization that we could step in and smack them down just like we did the Serbs? They have consistently encroached on the Palestinians, knowing full well, the global community would prefer Palestinian autonomy and real ownership of the West Bank. That requires an infrastructure however, that might include running water, electricity, access to foriegn journalists, buildings that are suitable for habitation and administration of a real government. Obviously the Israelis have accomplished exactly what they want by nullifying any of those realities.. Instead of being the real children of Dog they keep building settlements where they aren't welcome and they wonder why people want to kill them all. One interesting comment I heard on CNN was from a Palestinian woman who made the observation that there is no such thing as an Israeli civillian. Why? Not just because almost all Israelis perform mandatory military service, making them fair game, but they promote bad government policy by living in settlements that must be protected by tanks and guns. Why would any peace loving individual want to live under those conditions? I can find no reason other than the pompous and irascible attitude that they are dog's chosen and can do whatever the hell they please. That in my opinion is what it boils down to. They could live peacefully with their Palestinian nieghbors and probably benifit from lots of cheap labor, but no. Better to shoot them, take their land and expose a large majority of their own nation as war mongering, self righteous, bigoted assholes. After all, only the Israeli people can bring their agression to an end, and insofar as recent history they have refused to do so. Please read the harpers article Yeru and tell me if you would allow your family to exist under that kind of hatefulness. I doubt it!

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Naeblis
    Naeblis

    Of course the Israelis have to ask themselves, "Do past actions indicate that if we gave this land back we would not be attacked AGAIN??" When the people who want this land speak of only the extermination of Israel, and it is the stated goal of ever Muslim to destroy Israel, does it really make much sense for Israel to just hand back this territory which would put them in a very poor military position?? That land is strategic, not religious, I don't blame the Israeli's for not giving their enemies a better way to attack them (again)

  • Valis
    Valis

    come on naeb! From where do you derive the idea that the goal of every muslim is to destroy the jews? From what I understand several of the major arab states were willing to endorse a peace plan that included the recognition of the Jewish state. Would you say that the Palestinians have the same right to employ strategy that would act against jewish encroachment? I'm not in favor of suicide bombings by any means, but you notice that Israel doesn't try any of that with the other lands around them, like Syria. If the Palestinians had tanks and a serious military presence it might at least be a more even theater of conflict. It might have also lead to the UN stepping in much earlier. Saying that not giving the land back may not stem the tide of bombings is like the bully continuing to beat up the weaker, even after he's down. "Well I better keep kicking his ass, becuase my previous actions might piss him off enough to come back and do something about it."

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Naeblis
    Naeblis

    Umm Valis. THey had that land before. Did it stop the attacks then? Every Muslim? Ok, maybe not. Go to the Middle East and ask there how many people want Israel left in peace. THat "deal" the Saudi's offered is great. It's also nothing that hasn't been discussed before. But you can only be screwed so many times before you start to doubt the sincerity of your neighbours. I doubt very much that the countries who offered it would honour it. 2 years down the line another israeli outrage would emerge and once again Israel would be attacked from all sides. Anyways, the Israeli's offered all this a few years back. Arafat said no.

  • teejay
    teejay

    From the story bboy linked to:

      "There was shooting all around the house. At about 5pm I went to check the building. I told my husband two bombs had come into the house. He went to check. After two minutes he called me to come, but he was having difficulty calling. I went with the children. He was still standing. In my life I've never seen the way he looked at me. He said, 'I'm wounded', and started bleeding from his mouth and nose. The children started crying, and he fell down. I asked him what happened but he couldn't talk.

      "His eyes went to the children. He looked at them one by one. Then he looked at me. Then all his body was shaking. When I looked, there was a bullet in his head. I tried to call an ambulance, I was screaming for anybody to call an ambulance. One came but it was sent back by the Israelis."

    One of the few times I ever get emotional is when I think of my daughter and my efforts to protect her and see to it that she has a good life. I imagine being mortally wounded and looking her in the eye for the last time. Or, looking at my father if he were gunshot and lay dying in our living room. If I had such a memory, knowing me, I would nurture a living hatred for the perpetrators. It would take an act of god for me to let it go, and I question that one’s existence.

    I know that stories like this can be told on both sides. There are wrongs being committed on both sides. There are NO good guys here. It is a problem that I believe will not be solved in our lifetime.

    At the heart of it, though, is a belief, especially on the part of the Israelis, that god has a say in where they live, that it’s god’s will that they inhabit Palestine. Simon said it best on another thread:

    I think the problem is that the Jews have this stupid notion of it being their promised land.

    There are lots of people who have been displaced at sometime in history - should us Brits be getting compensation / recompense from the Saxons, Vikings, Romans and everyone else who invaded us at some point? Should I be forced from my home to give it to some Welsh bloke 'cause Celts used to live here a few thousand years ago? – Simon

    Those that *think* they have the answer to the Palestinian problem haven't thought about it long enough.
  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Valis,

    Perhaps the Israelis are wary of "inspectors" from the UN coming in because of all the rampant antisemitism in the world, especially in europe. They want to make sure they get a fair hearing. You said,

    From what I understand several of the major arab states were willing to endorse a peace plan that included the recognition of the Jewish state
    What took these Arab states so long to recognize Israel? These are the same Arab States that attacked Israel the same day it declared it's independence and tried to irradicate it.

    You said,

    From where do you derive the idea that the goal of every muslim is to destroy the jews?
    Ok, not every Muslim does, funny though, the Maps the Israelis keep finding in PA headquarters show The Palestinian State occupying ALL of the Holy Land, and no No Israel at all is shown. Or maybe it's from the fact that thus far the PLO Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Here are some facts you may not be aware of, yeru.

    --

    In 1947-48, Palestinians Became Victims

    By Charley Reese

    The Orlando Sentinal

    c. 2001 Orlando Sentinal
    7-31-1

    Let's play let's pretend.

    Pretend you live in Miami-Dade County, Fla., and you evacuate the area because a bad storm is bearing down on it.

    After the storm passes, you drive back but are met by military roadblocks. "You can't come back," you're told.

    "What do you mean I can't come back? I have a home and business there," you say.

    "Not anymore," the soldier says. "All of your property and possessions have been declared abandoned property and now will be used by us. So turn around. You've got 49 other states you can live in, but you're never going to the home you abandoned."

    Now, let's pretend that after NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia, the Yugoslavian government said it was willing to negotiate a cease-fire, but the Albanian refugees could not return to Kosovo. Do you think the United States would have agreed to that? I don't think so. I think the United States would have said to Yugoslavia the right of refugees to return to their homes is non-negotiable and, if you try to stop them, you'll have to get through us first.

    Well, this is exactly what happened to 700,000 Palestinians in 1947-48. By what one journalist called a "psychological warfare campaign punctuated with some well-timed massacres," the Israelis drove these people out of their homes and villages with nothing much but the clothes on their backs.

    Then, at a peace conference, the Israelis said first off that no refugees would be allowed to return nor would they be compensated for any property lost. That was Israel's original sin. It was also our original sin because the United States government did nothing and it should have insisted on the refugees' return.

    Zionists, however, were not acting in an arbitrary manner. The Zionist ideology, on which the current state of Israel is based, demands a Jewish state defined as a state with a Jewish majority, a Jewish government and Jewish laws. Small, non-Jewish minorities can be tolerated, though in practice in Israel they have been treated like second-class people. But a plural state is out of the question.
    The problem the Zionists faced in 1947-48 was this: Despite their best efforts, they had not succeeded in persuading a sufficient number of Jews to emigrate to Palestine. Consequently, even in the territory allotted by the partition of Palestine to the Jews, there were so many Palestinian Arabs that the early Zionists knew they should soon equal or exceed the Jews in number.

    In 1919, there were 57,000 Jews and 533,000 Arabs in Palestine. The Jews owned about 2 percent of the land. In 1946, the imbalance remained. There were 608,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. In 1946, Jews owned only 7 percent of Palestine.

    An Arab majority was unacceptable to Zionist ideology, so they practiced ethnic cleansing.

    So, for the same reason they drove them out in the first place, they could not let them back in. The Arab governments said if the refugees could not return, then they would not sign a peace treaty. This original sin -- the disposition of 700,000 Palestinians -- bred the conflict which rages to this day and will continue to rage until the Palestinians get justice or everybody on both sides are dead.

    I know that it's difficult. The Israelis have done a superb job of creating a racist stereotype of Palestinians in the minds of most Americans. But try, for a moment, to put yourself in their shoes back in 1947-48.

    You had a family, a farm or a business or shop. You had friends and relatives in a village where your ancestors had lived for centuries. Then, in the blink of an eye, you are torn from your roots and cast into a foreign country with no possessions, no money and no state you can call your own.

    These people and their descendants still live in those camps, at least those the Israelis haven't killed during their periodic bombing and shelling. These are the people Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak told Yasser Arafat that he must agree can never return or be compensated for their losses. That alone would have prevented Arafat from signing the agreement.

    It is this expulsion, not the establishment of the state of Israel, that Palestinians mean when they speak of the "Catastrophe." It was not only a cruel act of ethnic cleansing, but it was one of the greatest robberies in the history of mankind. Imagine if you could suddenly gain ownership of Miami-Dade, with all its businesses, inventories, bank accounts, houses, farms, and crops. Palestine was no Miami-Dade County, but the Palestinian possessions were nevertheless quite a pile of loot for the Israelis.

    This happened, by the way, before Jews left the Arab countries. It most defintely was not a population transfer. The Palestinian victims of ethnic cleansing had nothing to do with what happened to Jews in other Arab countries later.

    Copyright © 2001, Orlando Sentinel

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=orl%2Doped%2D reesefinal072901

    Tracking the truth even when it goes into unpopular territory

    Charley Reese

    July 29, 2001

    This is my farewell column to readers of the Orlando Sentinel. I'm not very good at this kind of thing. Thanks and goodbye.
    Now to fill the rest of the space.

    I thought I might answer a few questions. People often have asked how a columnist as conservative as I am could be published. I have you to thank for that. My readership numbers have always been very high. And that's the answer to your question.

    Those of you who like my column, however, owe some thanks to the Orlando Sentinel. I've made a lot of people quite angry, but the Orlando Sentinel has never yielded to pressure. They have never censored my column. They have never asked me not to write on any particular topic with only two exceptions. I'll get to those in a minute.

    No writer could ask for more than that and I am grateful to the succession of editors and publishers who have stood fast behind me.
    The two exceptions occurred when Jim Squires was editor and I was writing a local column. Two particular columns he thought might start a race riot and asked if I would agree to write on another topic. I did, of course, and he was probably right about the consequences. As an editor, he had to be concerned about consequences. As a writer, I've always written without regard for the consequences. I've always figured that once I've told the truth (as best as I can determine it at the time), then my job is finished. How people choose to react to that truth is not my concern.

    But those two exceptions over such a long span of years is something to marvel about.

    Another question people ask is why I changed my position on the Israeli-Palestinian question. The answer is quite simple. Initially I believed the Israeli version of the country's history. A new generation of Israeli historians, however, began to publish works that proved the official Zionist version was made up of lies and half truths. The Palestinians had indeed been done a grave injustice.
    After that revelation, I contacted Palestinians who live in this area, and they very generously gave me their time and insights. It is not pleasant to realize you've been so wrong, not only about Israel's history, but about Palestinians as human beings. You won't find any better people.

    I've always believed a journalist has a duty to keep tracking the truth even when it tracks into unpopular territory. I've tried to do that. With what success will depend frankly on how you see the truth. I've noticed over the years there seems to be fewer and fewer people who know how to disagree agreeably.

    Thirty years is a long time to spend in one building, especially one that in most parts has no windows and is being remodeled on a continuous basis. I've not only survived various editors and publishers but also a number of paint schemes, wallpapers, flooring choices and walls moved hither and yon. Fortunately I, myself, have been moved about, so I feel no sentimental attachment to the building. I just hope we never get eight inches of rain in a short time frame. I don't think there is enough support to the ceiling left to hold that weight. But what do I know about civil engineering? Not a thing except never to walk under things that could fall on you.
    For those of you interested, my mailing address is P.O. Box 2446, Orlando, FL 32802, and my e-mail address is [email protected]. Eventually you'll be able to find my columns on the Net, but at the moment I can't give you an address.

    I have to tell you, however, that my one regret about the column business is that the volume of mail, both snail and electronic, has grown so great I can't answer it all. I read it, but there simply isn't time to answer every one, and I regret that.

    On the whole, I've had a lot of fun. I've had fun in the newspaper business, in politics, in the Army, as a reserve deputy, and in the advertising agency business. I plan to have fun as a retiree. I've always followed the advice of an old samurai, even before I knew he had said it: Life is too short to do anything you don't want to do.
    I've always been curious, and I still am. The great thing about curiosity is that there is always so much we don't know we never run out of things to discover and learn.

    Some people have thought me too much of a pessimist, but I think of myself as a realist. I can't help that I've seen far too much evil, cruelty, brutality, death, dishonesty and hypocrisy to be a happy optimist. On the other hand, I've seen too much goodness, kindness, honesty, integrity and bravery to be a pessimist. The Chinese Taoists have it right. There is always light and darkness, good and evil, cowardice and courage, good times and bad times. Life is never all one or the other. It's always a mix, and we have to be strong enough to accept that. As an Asian sage put it, life is as it is whether we understand it or not.

    So, Sentinel readers, adieu. Thanks for all your kind thoughts and letters. To those of you who sent unkind thoughts, go to hell.

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