The relationship between the Father and Son. What's your opinion?

by DATA-DOG 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  DATA-DOG

  I am curious about this. Ever since I realized that there is no proof that Jesus=Michael the Archangel, I wondered about who Jesus was. The WTBTS is a materialistic religion, IMO. They need a physical answer for everything. All the rules and regulations, the virtual return to the Mosaic Law, the endless articles on types and anti-types, chronology, blah,blah,blah..ALL of it stems from what I believe to be a lack of spirituality, despite their claims to being spiritual people.

  So anyway. What do you think about the Father and Son relationship? I think that it cannot be explained from a physical viewpoint, it must be examined spiritually. Just my saying that I don't belive Jesus is Michael, and the oneness between the Father and son cannot be understood makes me an apostate by WTBTS standards. That being said, here is my take on it, my 2 cents, take it or leave it. Add to it if you wish.

  I imagine our Father creating THE WORD from his own being. If I was a complete being, neither male nor female, yet both, and I brought forth life from my own essence or life-force, that Being would be a unique creation all it's own. Still it would be from me, and of me, and would be inextricably linked to my own self. That's how I think of the Father and the Son, or THE WORD.

  The Father gave birth, so to speak, to an only begotten Son. Now those are human terms, otherwise we would have no hope of understanding the situation. The physical teaches us about the spiritual, but the spiritual takes precedent. Kind of like the Temple. It was just a representation of the situation in the Heavenly realm. Otherwise, how could we ever grasp what was going on. The human Father/Son relationship cannot even begin to describe the relationship between The Father and The Word. Jw's seem to think it does. To them it's like a Father and son that spend some time together, and have affection for each other. Then they just leave it at that.

  I feel that the actuall relationship cannot be explained away in that manner. It is much too deep. No human parent has ever brought forth life from themselves, from their very being. If you could, imagine the closeness that you would have with that child. It would be of you, but not you. Is that really that hard to understand? That's how I think of God and The Word. Jws seem to really miss out by not understanding that The Father and Son can share the same divine nature. I remember about a year ago, I realized that Jws don't believe in the Divinity of Christ. I thought, " Seriously? I had no idea that we did not believe that!." I always believed that Jesus was The Word in human form, and I saw no reason why that would take away his divine nature. So? What say you?
• 

  EndofMysteries

  There are a few possibilities I see from the scriptures which are not commonly mentioned nor many may have never even heard of.

  The first is this....a son can share the same name as the father and can also have his fathers authority.

  Let's say a father runs a company and his son is directly under him, and whatever the father instructs his son to say, everyone must follow his son as if it's from his mouth. Some sons even have their father's name, hence being named, "junior".

  Now with the ancient Israelites, YHWH many times is shown as being like an angel, or eating a meal, even meeting face to face, etc. Yet Jesus says nobody has ever seen the father. Also in some parts of the OT, it's said how YHWH was sending 'his angel' to lead them and they must obey EVERYTHING he says because he is very strict and will not tolerate disobedience, etc. Yet all the time when Israel is told to do something, it appears to be from YHWH directly. So is YHWH the father name, the son's name, is it the father or is it the son who is representing the father, or is it one of several angels/gods/etc who were given authority over certain parts of the world, etc.

  Another thing of note is the name Jesus= Yeshua being translated from hebrew to greek to english. The name Yeshua from hebrew to english is Joshua. In the OT, there are many things about the priest Joshua, even in some of the prophet books which match Jesus, but they also add a bit confusion and other possibilities as well.

  But aside from all the other possibilities, YHWH may have been a son or prehuman Jesus as well (by YHWH since the son may just be having that name in the father's authority, I just mean who is speaking face to face and generally leading the Israelites).

  It's like there are some scriptures which seem to point towards a Father, his son, then all other spirit creatures of various ranks and the opposer and his group. Then there are some where it seems there is a father then MANY sons and they are divided and at war w/ one another.

  If as how it is on Earth so it is in heaven, it would be like one scenario is Adam/Eve and the brothers cain and abel. Or when Jacob had 12 sons and how they were jealous of the youngest. It is possible that some of those human events are mirroring things happening in heaven.
• 

  suavojr

  How would a current JW structure the following statement?

  In the beginning the word was, and the word was with God and the word was a god. (John 1:1)NWT

  A JW would write: In the beginning the word was [created], and the word was with God, and the was a god.

  With this simple example I was able to understand what John was trying to imply, he never stated that Jesus was created. He expressed a continuous line of life for Jesus just as the father, with no beginning and no ending since the word WAS... Just as it stated that no God has been FORMED before YHWH and no other God after. How can then, 'a god' fit into this equation.
• 

  EndofMysteries

  suavojr - the definition of god might have to be changed then. If God means creator, vs one in charge, etc.

  Ps 82:6 - YHWH speaking to gods in the counsil of the divine one.....

  Daniel 10:13 - prince of persia vs gabriel. Does that fall in line with Duet 32:8 when the most high divided humans and YHWH's share was Israel? Was the prince of persia a god/angelic being/etc that was given the land of persia to rule over and for some reason is against Gabriel and Michael? Is that prince of persia part of the counsil of the divine in which YHWH is speaking with in Ps 82:6?

  I don't know all those answers yet, but there is definitely more then any religion I know of has explained or mentioned.
• 

  suavojr

  Endofmisteries

  Those are some good questions, but I am talking from a JW perspective and how my mind has evolved from thinking that Jesus could not be the one true God.
• 

  tec

  I imagine our Father creating THE WORD from his own being. If I was a complete being, neither male nor female, yet both, and I brought forth life from my own essence or life-force, that Being would be a unique creation all it's own. Still it would be from me, and of me, and would be inextricably linked to my own self. That's how I think of the Father and the Son, or THE WORD.

  The Father gave birth, so to speak, to an only begotten Son. Now those are human terms, otherwise we would have no hope of understanding the situation. The physical teaches us about the spiritual, but the spiritual takes precedent. Kind of like the Temple. It was just a representation of the situation in the Heavenly realm. Otherwise, how could we ever grasp what was going on.

  I feel that the actuall relationship cannot be explained away in that manner. It is much too deep. No human parent has ever brought forth life from themselves, from their very being. If you could, imagine the closeness that you would have with that child. It would be of you, but not you. Is that really that hard to understand? That's how I think of God and The Word. Jws seem to really miss out by not understanding that The Father and Son can share the same divine nature. I remember about a year ago, I realized that Jws don't believe in the Divinity of Christ. I thought, " Seriously? I had no idea that we did not believe that!."

  For someone who thinks it cannot be fully known... you sound like you have a great understanding of their relationship!

  I always believed that Jesus was The Word in human form, and I saw no reason why that would take away his divine nature. So? What say you?

  I say... 'Amen'

  Peace to you data-dog!

  tammy
• 

  DATA-DOG

  If you want a confusing read, check out what the WTBTS has to say about Jesus NOT being a co-creator. They want to say that he created all things, but they want him to be a tool used by GOD. Even if they were right and GOD used Jesus to created, then Jesus is a creator. They get so legalistic and materialistic in their approach to EVERYTHING. They have painted themselves into a corner by claiming to have all the answers, and then being to prideful to admit that they don't know anything more than any other religion.

  I think I understand you Suavojr. You are saying that if NO GOD existed before or AFTER YHWH, then the NWT rendering of John 1:1 makes no sense, as it would contradict. Then again the council of Gods is interesting, that makes me think of the 24 Elders of Revelation.

  DD
• 

  fulltimestudent

  Have a go at reading the debates in the early church up into the late antiquity era and onwards.

  It went on for hundreds of years and I get a bloody headache reading the arguments and counter arguments.
• 

  designs

  It got down to minutia between groups like the Coptic church and the Oriental Orthodox with homousios and homoiousios.
• 

  Pterist

  @ Data- Dog

  You might be interested in what C S Lewis says on the subject, of Godly life! Begetting and Creating.

  Here is one link of many from his book Mere Christianity.

  http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=Sd0f0RX2Ag8

  Sorry I can't make this a hyper link on my iPad

  Shalom Friend :)