250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

by nicolaou 739 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • steve2
    steve2

    I’ve considered what you’ve had to say, too. And, not that it matters, but I’ve bothered myself to respond exhaustively to your complaints. At this point I’m left wondering if you’re attempt is no more than trying to waste my time. You’ve ignored substance at every turn. So be it. Readers will make of this discussion what they will, which is as it should be.

    The frustrating aspect for me is that you have proceeded with your research project making "allowances" for assumptions whereas you should not have proceeded with any kind of extrapolatory analysis in the first place because it violates sound research design and methodology.

    But do not take my word for it. Submit your project to a peer-reviewable publication and see what happens.

    I have continued throughout this thread to describe your approach as "naive" and your continued use of the phrase "conservative" approach reveals that rather than recognizing you cannot use the New Zealand study to extrapolate to worldwide estimates, you have proceeded anyway.

    I am in two minds about your thinking on this matter. Unlike Adam, I do not think you are willfully ignoring the points we raise; rather, you are just not getting them. I'm prepared to acknowledge this may be due in part to my way of writing. However, I suspect it is also most likely due to your not knowing the basics of sound research design and methodology. If you have done any undergraduate or postgraduate work in research design and use of statistics, you would perhaps have a better grasp of the points we have endeavored to make. No undegraduate course on statistics and research design would accept what you have done, let alone a post-graduate one. As I may have said earlier, I have postgraduate qualifications in those two areas - requirements of my PhD research.

    You can accuse me of many things Marvin, but taking the time and effort to respond to your posts is in no way an attempt to waste your time. However, I sense that perhaps my readiness to continue responding to your posts has decreased of late. I am happy to leave the last word to you - and wish you all the best.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Marvin: don't start calling people troll !!

  • zed is dead
    zed is dead

    Simon,

    When he has no bullets left, Marvin digresses to name calling.

    zed

  • the girl next door
  • Simon
    Simon

    Calling someone a troll is really just an attempt at saying "you're views don't count".

    Unless someone is genuinely trolling (in which case they welcome the disruption), then the accusation is simply insulting and unhelpful to the discussion.

  • KiddingMe
    KiddingMe

    Marked

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    STEVE: I am in two minds about your thinking on this matter. Unlike Adam, I do not think you are willfully ignoring the points we raise; rather, you are just not getting them.

    Steve, I agree with you. I don't think he understands at all what the problem is. I tried to understand his methodology, but he doesn't give a strait answer. I am no statistician, but I tried to follow his reasoning and it seems he has made wild assumptions, that he refuses to acknowledge, and will not, or can not believe that he could possibly be wrong.

    He got a percentage, he did the math, he doesn't see why any one would question it. One tiny study, in four hospitals, over ten years extrapolated to the world (with all kind of populations, and health practices), over 50 years (during which time medical practices changed dramatically), sure, why not. A study that has been criticized for comparing apples to oranges, that some feel is seriously flawed because of disparate ages and health conditions, and that is at odds with many other studies. But hey, he sure can multiply, and its all OK because he made "conservative" wild guesses.

    What I do know is he will argue until the cows come home, and he will have the last word.

    I suggest we let him have it, and let this thread die a natural death. I think he is doing more harm than good, but that is on him.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Tbanks for your perceptive summary Lisa. I agree.My wishing Marvin well a few hours ago was my way of bowing out of this thread. My comment here is to acknowledge your thoughtful response to something I wrote so I hope it is not viewed as further dragging things out - but I wouldn't blame someone for thinking that! Best.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “Marvin: don't start calling people troll !!”

    Simon,

    Please share that piece of advice with everyone else around here too. I’m just as tired of the phrase as everyone else is. But you seem a little selective about who is licensed around here to apply the term. When participants tag me with that label I’ve yet to see them admonished as you do me above. I recommend you start with yourself, and zed is dead immediately afterward.

    Steve2,

    My work presenting an extrapolation of deaths due to Watchtower’s blood doctrine is neither designed nor intended for anyone’s academic acceptance. It never has been. That whole objection coming from you and others is no more than one gigantic strawman.

    My work presenting an extrapolation of deaths due to Watchtower’s blood doctrine is to offer AN answer to a decades old question; not THE answer to a decades old question.

    My work is not to have predicted the number of deaths but, rather, a number based on known data and stated assumptions. This is how extrapolations are made, whether academic or casual. My extrapolation is informal. To then treat it as formal is beside the point, not to mention absurd!

    My work is to share a number to help people grasp a scope they may not have thought possible but, as it turns out, is possible.

    How do we know it’s possible? Because of the number of documented deaths in the captured population in 2 regions of New Zealand among JWs refusing blood and defaulting to conservative assumptions for sake of calculating what this means against the world population of JWs.

    This is no academic exercise for me. My effort is to help people understand what is happening in the community of JWs. The Watchtower is not giving this information out, and I’m not going to sit on it. I’m telling.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Marvin says ..... That whole objection coming from you and others is no more than one gigantic strawman.

    And you my friend have created nothing more than an misleading objective red herring .

    Must be some JWism still lingering somewhere inside, right Marvin ?

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