adamah, not that I disagree with you, but if the writer of Job didn't believe in a resurrection, what about the verses where Job asks if an able-bodied man can live again, then says he wants God to conceal him in the grave, and that after serving his time he will be released?
Jesus sacrifice and animal sacrifice contradiction
by trackregister99 43 Replies latest watchtower bible
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DeWandelaar
What people want is not always what they get. I want to live after death... but I do not know if it is there and what it will be. We can not see beyond the portals of Hades now can we. Same with Job. Hey may have wished to come back and expressed this feeling. Does it mean it is a prophecy?
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caroline77
The context in Job 19 v 25 is in the future.
What about psalm 23? "I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever" ?
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DeWandelaar
He who is on dope will dwell everywhere forever... it is a telling by moses about a man called Job... It is not like Job himself wrote it down if you know what I mean ;) ...
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adamah
Apo said-
adamah, not that I disagree with you, but if the writer of Job didn't believe in a resurrection, what about the verses where Job asks if an able-bodied man can live again, then says he wants God to conceal him in the grave, and that after serving his time he will be released?
You'd need to cite a specific scripture, but try untangling it for yourself, making sure your interpretation doesn't stem from "cherry-picking" the words out of it's context they play within the story, making sure you understand who is talking to whom, and where the passage appears in the story.
Caroline said-
The context in Job 19 v 25 is in the future.
That's right, and that's what I said when I explained the passage serves as 'dramatic foreshadowing', a commonly-used literary device where a character (or narrarator) gives a hint to what occurs in the story. Job was referring to God's later appearing in a whirlwind in the story, not to some as-yet fulfilled occurrance. That reading would make no sense to the actual point of the story (that God acted as his redeemer by appearing and hearing his Oath of Innocence, and chastizing his "friends" for doubting him, thus vindicating him), since Job would simply have accepted his fate and died, knowing he'd be resurrected in the future.
What about psalm 23? "I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever" ?
You DO realize that the idea of the writings of Psalms appearing in the same book as the book of Job is a relatively-late concept, right? The author(s) of Job was a completely different person who lived centuries apart from when the author(s) of Psalms wrote, and neither knew their writings would be included in the same anthology, centuries later. The fact their works appear in the Bible is the result of 'canonization': deciding which writings are included in the Bible.
The concept of resurrection developed only in LATE Judaism, emerging in the later writings which are found in the Hebrew Bible. These works (eg the Book of Daniel) were written AFTER syncretism with Zoroasterian beliefs occurred, since it crept into Judaism in the post-exilic period after the Jews were liberated by the Persians (circa 6th cent BC). However, early Judaism didn't include the idea, and if you were talking to a member of the Priestly Class who lived BEFORE the concept was accepted into Hebrew worship, he'd look at you like you have a hole in your head, or worse, would have you killed for being a heretic!
Here's more reading on the topic of resurrection's introduction into Judaism:
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/4zoroa94.html
Dewandelaar said-
it is a telling by moses about a man called Job... It is not like Job himself wrote it down if you know what I mean ;)
Yeah, the attribution of authorship of the Book of Job to Moses is a reflection of the WT's 'stinking thinking': the book of Job WASN'T written by "Moses", by the result of many redactors, and this is known for oh-so-many-reasons (it's ancient Hebrew poetry, for one). If you want to get into the evidence, Leolaia's written some posts on the topic on JWN.
Adam
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Apognophos
You'd need to cite a specific scripture, but try untangling it for yourself, making sure your interpretation doesn't stem from "cherry-picking" the words out of it's context they play within the story, making sure you understand who is talking to whom, and where the passage appears in the story.
:-/ Were you ever a Witness? I'm referring to the famous passage in Job 14:13-15. Witnesses consider it a clear indication of the resurrection hope. Personally, I think he may have been speaking hypothetically, but nevertheless it seems to be a clear suggestion that man can be brought back to life.
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BackseatDevil
Just to interrupt (When I left this thread we were on sacrifices, now we're on JOB)...
There are a few things about the writer of Job. (1) they did not believe in Satan the Devil being a real entity and (2) They did not believe in the resurrection. In fact, as Apognophos mentions, Job 14:13-15 is used by the JWs for a warm fuzzy feeling of consistancy in the bible, but reading the scriptures as they are, Job is accepting of the finality of death. This is a widely accepted interpretation of this because at the time of writing, there was no resurrection hope in existance.
Please understand... the book of Job IS A POEM. There is absolutely nothing about it that should be taken with any weight outside that of metaphoric literature. It is a very deep and rich story... important for every one of us... but it is still just a poem.
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adamah
Apo said-
:-/ Were you ever a Witness? I'm referring to the famous passage in Job 14:13-15. Witnesses consider it a clear indication of the resurrection hope. Personally, I think he may have been speaking hypothetically, but nevertheless it seems to be a clear suggestion that man can be brought back to life.
I was raised as a child/teen in the JWs, but fidgeted about in my chair, counted holes in the ceiling tiles, looked at the art work in the orange book, etc, etc. so excuse me for not remembering the "famous passage", since I prefer to actually study the Bible properly (i.e. by examining the cultural context in which it was written).
As Backseat Devil pointed out, the story of Job was likely written BEFORE religious syncretism with their Persian liberators' beliefs had occurred, and early Judaism didn't include a belief in resurrection (nor even further back in time, where the story of Job is set). Remember the Persian liberator Cyrus the Great (Persian liberator) was called "messiah" by the prophetic writer(s) Isaiah, since the Hebrew's liberation from Babylon was so profoundly important to them the Jews considered it as resulting from the hand of God.
But back to Job:
In Chapter 14 (NIV), Job had been speaking to his "friends" of the finality of human death in verse 1-6, but notice in verse 7-9 how Job refers to the seeming "resurrection" of a tree:
7 "At least there is hope for a tree: If it is cut down, it will sprout again, and its new shoots will not fail.
8 Its roots may grow old in the ground and its stump die in the soil,
9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put forth shoots like a plant.
But in verses 10-12, Job shifts back to discussing the current conception of what happens to mortal man when they die:
10 But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more,
11 As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep.
"Will not awake" sounds pretty final, i.e. no resurrection.
However, Job engages in speculation and fantasy-ridden wishful thinking in verse 13-17, saying how great it would be if men had the hope for a resurrection ("If only....") just like a chopped-down tree (as mentioned in 7-9, where trees seemingly comes back to life with shoots arising from their underground root systems):
13 "If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.
16 Surely then you will count my steps but not keep track of my sin.
17 My offenses will be sealed up in a bag; you will cover over my sin.
But Job shifts back to his current reality: men die without any such hope, and fall into the sleep of death without any hopes of resurrection:
18 "But as a mountain erodes and crumbles and as a rock is moved from its place,
19 as water wears away stones and torrents wash away the soil, so you destroy a person’s hope.
20 You overpower them once for all, and they are gone; you change their countenance and send them away.
21 If their children are honored, they do not know it; if their offspring are brought low, they do not see it.
22 They feel but the pain of their own bodies and mourn only for themselves.”
Note too, that when the story continues in Job 15, Eliphaz responds by poo-poohing Job's suggestion as the ideas of a foolish wind-bag, a blow-hard:
1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite replied:
2 "Would a wise person answer with empty notions or fill their belly with the hot east wind?
3 Would they argue with useless words, with speeches that have no value?
4 But you even undermine piety and hinder devotion to God.
5 Your sin prompts your mouth; you adopt the tongue of the crafty.
6 Your own mouth condemns you, not mine; your own lips testify against you.
It's clear from the context that while the Job passage may have been the roots of the idea of an Earthly resurrection, it's clear the belief wasn't accepted in the period in which the story is set, even ifJob had been Jewish (he wasn't, since as stated eariler, the parable of Job is set in a place/time before Jehovah forged a covenant with the Israelites to become his chosen people on Mt Sinai).
Adam
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Apognophos
Okay, fair enough. I do want to remind you that I wrote above that he might have been speaking hypothetically. I think you make a pretty good case for the interpretation that there was not a resurrection belief at the time, but it's interesting that the writer might have been thinking of such a thing. Just for contrast, here is what the Society chooses to emphasize about these verses: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011172
You'll notice that their emphasis is on phrases like "you will call and I will answer you", pointing out the certainty in his tone. Of course, if this is all part of a wishful daydream on Job's part, then this passage reads very differently.
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adamah
Apo said-
You'll notice that their emphasis is on phrases like "you will call and I will answer you", pointing out the certainty in his tone. Of course, if this is all part of a wishful daydream on Job's part, then this passage reads very differently.
Yeah, thanks for the link to the WT article, which predictably leads with it's desired interpretation, thus telling the believers what they want to hear....
Our own local JWN legend Leolaia wrote a read-worthy post on this topic a few years ago, having put much-more research into the evolution of the passage, including a mention of how many passages were intentionally mistranslated in the LXX to support the Xian doctrine of resurrection (which had developed LONG AFTER the OT accounts were written):
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/88748/1/Job-and-the-resurrection#.UmcfXSQhZLc
Adam