Do we really need an organization and need to be in subjection to it as God always chose leaders (Abhraham, Moses, Jesus, Apostles)? What are your thoughts? How can you reason this out?
For the ones who believe in Bible - What does the scriptures here imply on subjection to religious leaders? - Hebrews 13:17-19, 22-25
by MissConfused 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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DATA-DOG
You don't need an organization, or a formal way of worship. If we did, then why not just continue to follow the Mosaic Law, and traditions? Why would "Spirit and Truth" matter at all? As for "leaders", that can also mean guides. So think of Abraham. he was the father of those having faith. He let his faith move him to action, and the overall course of his life was worthy of imitation, although he was not perfect by any means.
There are some criteria to be met by "leaders" or "guides." For instance, any so-called Christian "guide" who deviated from what God's word actually says, perhaps teaching their own ideas, would not be worthy of imitation. We are to observe how things turn out for those ones. If a "Christian" religion is actually leading people away from Christ's teachings, and toward human leaders or intitutions for salvation, then they are not true "guides" and they are not worthy of imitation.
There are many good commentaries on Hebrews 13. It all comes down to the motives of the men who are " taking the lead" or trying to set the example. I am sure that there were times in history, when there were no living examples to follow. So you would have to look at faithful ones in the past and try to imitate them. Also there are many who want you as a disciple so they can ' brag or boast about your flesh.' They just want to add you to their stats. You become a disciple that they have transversed land and sea for, you fit into their "powerful works " category. Beware of them, because they are not worthy of imitation. That's why Jesus said to do as they say, not as they do. Do the good things that they claim to be doing, just don't become a hypocritical, self appointed "leader." You don't need to brag or remind people of who you are if you are really a good example.
Peace,
DD
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Honesty
All we need to know about subjecting ourselves to some self appointed leaders is found in Matthew 18:20.
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emeth
I dont think you get any useful answers on this board when it comes to questions like this. But studying the bible and meditation and prayer about this subject might give you the right insight
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tornapart
I would agree with DD about the bible commentaries. You can find some on biblehub.com. Some interesting understandings on the greek words used for obedience and submission.
I always think of the example of Aaron. Used in a recent WT study as an example of a man put in a position of leadership by God himself. Of course it was used as an example that we must 'obey' and 'follow' our leaders as if we were following God.
However, what did Aaron do for the people while Moses was away? He created a Golden Calf for them to worship. What did God think of that? Was he pleased with the Israelites for what Aaron had done for them?
Then I think to the WT. What have they done while their master Christ is away? They have had to create something visible for them to follow... a new Golden Calf.
Paul himself said in his letters that the disciples were NOT to follow him, Cephas or Apollos or anyone else... only Christ. These sherpherds were there merely to look after and protect. Not to become Lords and Masters.
If they do exactly as Christ commanded and care for his sheep in the proper manner, looking after them and caring for them, then they receive our respect.
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DATA-DOG
Emeth, are you including your own statement in your comment?! LOL!! I think the answers are pretty good so far.
DD
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MissConfused
Thanks all..
@ DD - You have brought up quite good points. I will try and read the complete chapter and see what does it really takes to be called a leader.
@ Honesty - Thanks for the scripture.. I felt that this scripture is given such less importance with regard to studying Bible.
@ Emeth - Never under-estimate the number of people this site is supporting emotionally... I have got some great insights on Bible in this forum than anywhere else. You should always rely on God and meditate agreed but also no where Bible says, you cant research or discuss with certain type of people.
@ Tornapart - Great points.. Will use them to reason further.. !!!
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Bella15
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
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tec
As well as what has been stated above, there are these other verses:
"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."
The above is from God on who we are to listen TO.
And Christ said:
"But you are not to be called 'rabbi', for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth, 'father', for you have one Father and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant."
Peace to you,
tammy
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MissConfused
Thanks Tammy.. Just wondering is there anywhere in Bible that says we do not need organization.