Question for JW apologists...

by Jeffro 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Doug Mason

  Of course the WTS does not start its "70 years" with the destruction of Jerusalem but with the exodus of some Jews into Egypt, following Gedaliah's murder.

  I say that the exodus took place 4 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. In any case, the WTS demands that the land was devoid of people, and this did not occur immediately after Jerusalem's destruction, with the Babylonians installing an administration there under Gedaliah. It is most likely that when the Babylonians invaded the land during Nebucahdnezzar's 23rd year that this was in response to Gedaliah's murder.

  At the other end of the WTS's "70 years", they wait until the people were in the land, had all settled into their towns and villages, traipsed to Jerusalem, and built their altar before they end the 70 years.

  On top of that, when Ezra later wrote 2 Chronicles, he said that the 70 years ended when the Persians defeated Babylon, not when people assembled at the temple site.

  And further, no one knows the year when those exiles from Babylon made their journey - dates from 538 to 535 are given. The WTS cannot prove its date.

  And further, archaeological evidence shows that the land remained occupied - the Babylonians needed the land to be harvested for food, as the Bible indicates.

  Doug
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  Jeffro

  Doug Mason:

  Of course the WTS does not start its "70 years" with the destruction of Jerusalem but with the exodus of some Jews into Egypt, following Gedaliah's murder.

  Correct. They say the '70 years' started in October of 607, whereas Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed in August. But that doesn't help their broken interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 highlighted by their even worse rendering in the 2013 revision.

  I say that the exodus took place 4 years after Jerusalem was destroyed.

  That may be the case, but it doesn't accord with the Bible, including the interpolation from Babylonian sources at Jeremiah 52:28-30, which indicates exiles taken in the year the temple was destroyed, and 5 years later. Of course, there's no indication at all that Judea was ever actually entirely uninhabited (in fact, it's known that parts of Judea remained inhabited). Even Jeremiah 44:14 refers to "some escaped ones" who went back from Egypt to Judah, years after Jerusalem had been destroyed. In any case, the idea that it took place "4 years later" has no bearing on the JW interpretation.

  On top of that, when Ezra later wrote 2 Chronicles, he said that the 70 years ended when the Persians defeated Babylon, not when people assembled at the temple site.

  Of course. The Bible never mentions 70 years of exile, and Ezekiel explicitly states that they started counting the exile years before the destruction of the temple.

  And further, no one knows the year when those exiles from Babylon made their journey - dates from 538 to 535 are given.

  It is more than likely that the way the Bible tells the story of Cyrus' decree isn't exactly what happened. In fact, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Cyrus made any great proclamations about 'Jehovah', and considerably more likely that he had a policy of religious tolerance, and allowed exiles, whether Jews or from elsewhere, to return to their homeland and worship however they liked. But, again, according to the narrative in the Bible (and supported by Josephus), the Jews who were first permitted to leave Babylon arrived in Judea in 538 BCE. And whilst Cyrus' motive is almost certainly embellished in the Hebrew narrative, there's not really any compelling reason to believe the timing in the Bible must be wrong.

  In short, if the Bible is correct, JWs are wrong, and if the Bible is incorrect, JWs are wrong.
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  yadda yadda 2

  Very interesting. Doesn't Greg Stafford analyse the original languages and provide some scholars views for and against and conclude that it's inconclusive? That might have been way back when he was a lot more on the fence about 1914; he's pretty clear now that it's erroneous.

  http://www.elihubooks.com/data/topical_index/000/000/108/Three_Diss_Appendix_Gentile_Times_2002.pdf
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  Jeffro

  The previously mentioned 'phantom of the forum' has again been sending PMs about this thread. He suggested that I haven't considered... Furuli.

  Oh, I laughed and laughed.
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  jhine

  Anne , Hi , as a dumb dumb myself I apreciate that link and will study it at length . Am I correct in thinking that the crux is that the prophecy does not refer just to exile but to the nations serving Babylon for seventy years ?

  Jan
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  Doug Mason

  My reason for saying that the exodus into Egypt could not have taken place within two months of the destruction of Jerusalem is available at:

  http://www.jwstudies.com/Did_Jews_exit_after_two_months.pdf

  It simply means that instead of bring in the destruction of Jerusalem, the WTS simply has to jump from its mythical 537 date to the (undateable) exodus into Egypt. Of course that could mean that if the exodus took place in 607 and there was a 4 year gap to the destruction of Jerusalem, they would simply only have to move Jerusalem's Fall to 611 BCE.

  It's that simple for them.

  Doug
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  Jeffro

  Doug Mason:

  It simply means that instead of bring in the destruction of Jerusalem, the WTS simply has to jump from its mythical 537 date to the (undateable) exodus into Egypt. Of course that could mean that if the exodus took place in 607 and there was a 4 year gap to the destruction of Jerusalem, they would simply only have to move Jerusalem's Fall to 611 BCE.
  It's that simple for them.

  Except that has nothing to do with the problem with the relative timing inherent in their new rendering of Jeremiah 29:10.
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  AnnOMaly

  Jeffro: Of course, there's no indication at all that Judea was ever actually entirely uninhabited (in fact, it's known that parts of Judea remained inhabited). Even Jeremiah 44:14 refers to "some escaped ones" who went back from Egypt to Judah , years after Jerusalem had been destroyed.

  Mustn't forget Ezek. 33:21, 24 - there were "inhabitants of these ruins" in the 10th month (Dec./Jan.), 5 months after Jerusalem's destruction.

  Jan, yes - Jeremiah connected the 70 years with the nations' servitude to Babylon - NOT the length of the Jewish exile.
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  wasblind

  SFTW, why is 1914 so important to the JW belief system ?______problemaddict

  " Why do Jehovah's Witnesses say that God's Kingdom was established in 1914 ?

  Two lines of evidence point to that year: (1) Bible chronology and (2) the events scince 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy "___Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 95

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  " Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E "____Reasoning from the scriptures book page 96

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  " What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son."___Reasoning from the scriptures book page 97

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  " After Christ was enthroned , Satan and his demons were hurled down to earth "____Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 97

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  " In the mean time, the very difficult conditions foretold for the " last days " would prevail. As shown under the heading " Last Days ", those events have been clearly evident scince 1914."____Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 97

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  " In 1914 the first world war was fought. This was not merely a conflict between two armies on the battle field. For the first time, all major powers were at war . Entire nations including civilian populations were mobilized to support the war effort. It is estimated that by the end of the was 93 perent of the population of the world was involved. ( regarding the historical significance of 1914, see pages 239, 240 ) "____Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 235

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  " As foretold at Revelation 6:4 ' peace was taken away from the earth.' Thus the world has continued to be in a state of upheaval ever scince 1914."____Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 235

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  Nu Light.

  Evidently, Jehovah's Witnesses no longer have " evidence" that Satan started WWI

  scince it started months before he was hurled down to earth

  So now they claim " About that time "

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  Jeffro

  wasblind:

  Evidently, Jehovah's Witnesses no longer have " evidence" that Satan started WWI

  It seems that in the JW mindset, all was well in the world and... suddenly... out of nowhere, World War I happened in the magical year of... 1914. Anyone reading only JW literature might be forgiven for thinking that, out of the blue, Archduke Ferdidand was assassinated on a whim, and that that was the very beginning of the conflict.

  Back in reality, it followed on from the Balkan Wars of 1912 - 1913 (which themselves followed on from tensions that had developed throughout eastern Europe from the mid-19th century onwards).

  Funnily enough, JW literature has seen fit to discuss many wars. The following wars are specifically listed in the JW Publications Index under the main entry for War:

  • Peasants' War (Germany) (1524)
  • Eighty Years War (1568-1648)
  • Thirty Years War (1618-1648)
  • English Civil War (1642-1651)
  • American War of Independence (1775-1783)
  • Napoleonic Wars (1803-1815)
  • Opium Wars (1839-1842; 1856-1860)
  • Maori Wars (sporadically, from 1845-1872)
  • Castle War (Mayans vs. Spanish) (1847-1853)
  • Taiping Rebellion (China) (1850-1864)
  • Crimean War (1853-1856)
  • American Civil War (1861-1865)
  • Boer War (1880 - 1881; 1899-1902)
  • World War I (1914-1918)
  • Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)
  • World War II (1939-1945)
  • Korean War (1950-1953)

  In addition, various Watch Tower Society publications discuss or at least mention just about evey other notable conflict worldwide, as well as various minor civil wars. And yet the Watchtower Library CD-ROM does not make one single mention of the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, even when specifically addressing the history of World War I.