Never found that argument convincing Vanderhoven. Why would God inspire John to write a whole narrative based only on 'hearing' v 'seeing' of the same group? There must be some distinguishing difference between the 144k and great crowd. Who are the 'tribes' from which the 144k comes out of in Rev 7? These tribes are the same as the great crowd, not the 144k. The great crowd are all the tribes together but including gentiles in their sanctified state having gained salvation through the great tribulation.
The Great Crowd and 144K explained
by Crazyguy 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Vanderhoven7
LOOKING AT the number 144,000 A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY:
How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, comparable to the stars in the heaven for number, we would certainly be dealing with a sizable group, an innumerable group, How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?
David Chilton, in his excellent commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" page 206 says
“ The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness."
There is further biblical support that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are identical, that they really are the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that THE APOSTLE John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing on page 213 of:”Days of Vengeance:”
“ For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns
to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then
sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"
- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same
pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the
number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things
- after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold
a Great Multitude (v.9).
There is one church indivisible; the Great crowd is not a piddly 7 or 8 million which we can all number; and the number of those sealed by the Spirit of God is a perfect number, representing a perfect innumerable body of believers. As promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:
144,000 / GREAT CROWD
a. From every kindred and nation. 5:9 7:9
b. Servants of God. 7:3 7:15
c. Divinely protected thru tribulation 9:4,5 /Acts 14:22 7:14
d. followers of the Lamb 14:4 7:17
e. Redeemed 14:3 7:14
f. Pure and Spotless 14:4 7:13,14
g. Standing before the throne 14:1,3 7:9
h. Before the Lamb 5:8 7:9
i. In His temple (naos) 11:1,2 7:15; 11:19
j. Tenting/residing with God 2Cor. 6:16 7:15
i. Dressed in white robes 6:11 7:9
j. Wearing robes that are washed 22:14 7:14
h. A heavenly class 14:1; 4:1,2; 19:1
i. Spirit begotten 7:3 I Jn. 5:1
144,000
- Doesn't this "suspiciously tidy sort of number seem much more
likely to be a symbol than a statistic"?.
("The Message of Revelation", p.80)
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Crazyguy
John is in heaven where he sees the great crowd but only hears about the 144K because their on earth sill alive being sealed (protected) from the 4 winds about to hit the earth. Read this guys stuff on his site, hes a very well respected translater and bible scholar, you'll see he makes a lot of sence.
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tec
Peace to you!
The 144000 are literal Israel. That is why the 12 tribes are specifically mentioned. We (man) may have forgotten literal Israel and all twelve tribes, but God has not. These are literal members of Israel, and these ones are numbered. The Great Crowd is not numbered, because anyone may come into the Great Crowd, and that door is still OPEN. These ones come from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue. These ones wash their robes in the blood of the lamb... and so the two (the 144 000 of Israel... AND... the Great Crowd)... become one. Just as Paul also spoke of the two becoming one. Those from Israel who are in Christ... and those from the nations (gentiles) who are in Christ. The two are made one in Christ.
All of these make up the bride. Those who have 'fallen asleep' (and are under the altar, also given white robes and told to wait a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters come), and those who are still alive when Christ returns... all are gathered to Him when He returns. All changed, "in a twinkling"... as Paul also explained.
These two who have become one rule with Christ as kings and priests, a "thousand years".
This is the understanding that I have recieved from my Lord, and I am sharing with you. You need not take my word of course, but you can go to Christ and ask Him to teach you the truth on this matter.
Peace to you,
tammy
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Crazyguy
I do not believe 144k are literal Israel for they lost that chance and that is why the tribes are not the original listed. Also the scriptures never say anyone let alone the 144K rule with Christ as Kings, check your Greek. I did like you believe that the 144K represented the lost sheep of Israel since Jesus came for those first, but the events written in Revelations don't seem to match up with that. Anyway even this writer is quick to say that hes just speculating and know one really knows, these theories just make a lot more sense then the JW dogma.
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tec
Peace Crazyguy!
Israel did not lose their chance... some are reserved, to fulfill the promise God made to Abraham and also Jacob. Besides, all the early apostles WERE of Israel. ANYONE... Israel or not... who chooses to come to Christ MAY come to Christ, then and now. But the Jews are only a portion of Israel... from the two tribe kingdom of the south. There are 10 other tribes of Israel that, even though man and even they may have forgotten, God does not forget them.
Also the scriptures never say anyone let alone the 144K rule with Christ as Kings, check your Greek
What about priests... what about them reigning with Christ?
Here is the interlinear from the site blue letter bible: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G936&t=NIV
I did like you believe that the 144K represented the lost sheep of Israel since Jesus came for those first, but the events written in Revelations don't seem to match up with that.
How so? The two become one... same as Paul said... seems to be pretty straightforward to me. God also always said that He has reserved some of Israel for Himself, his inheritence.
Anyway even this writer is quick to say that hes just speculating and know one really knows, these theories just make a lot more sense then the JW dogma.
Oh, you won't see me agreeing that the jw theory makes sense : ) They don't know either, and are just speculating, and so also get it wrong. But please consider that there is ONE who DOES know; the same ONE who gave the revelation to John in the first place, and He can reveal the truth of the matter to anyone He chooses and who is willing to hear Him. So that others may also know.
Peace to you!
tammy
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Crazyguy
I found and read this sites expert (Leolaia) on the same subject, her thread titled,{144k and the Great Crowd of Revelation}. She also has come to the same conclusion as the person I first posted about. Tammy if you read chapter 5 of Romans, Paul speaks of the term Reign in a totally different way then what we think. Also Adam was supposed to Reign over the animals etc. but not over other humans, priests also do not in Jah's arriangment rule over other men.
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tec
I am not sure what you think I mean when I say reign. What do you mean when you think of the term reign?
Because it does not mean to lord oneself over another; to look down upon another; to expect to be served by others; etc.
It does mean to care for; to husband. Also means to have authority over; although man abuses such; Christ does not.
And death DID (and still does) reign in this world... because man and animal alike, all die... except that death has no authority over those who are in Christ, the Life (life being the absence of death); those who are in Christ sleep, but do not go to the world of the dead (sheol); they go under the altar, to sleep until it is time for them to wake.
(death still reigns over our flesh; as death is in these vessels)
Peace,
tammy
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Crazyguy
Nice post Tammy, most people including myself see the word 'reign' and we think to rule over and that also how the ORg had taught it. But like you said and is confirmed in Romans thats not what the bible's term for the word means. Its important that people know the difference. Peace.