by confusedandalone 113 Replies latest jw friends
There is a christian poster on here and I can't remember her name... Not TEC. It might be Mary? Anyway she actually just said that they deserved the things that happened. They were bad people and even their kids would have turned out bad. So they had to die.
Thats a sentiment I actually had my father express. That the people over there are like animals. The young kids already hate the Jews. So all of them had to die. Scary thing is that the society encourages this type of thinking.
Adamah you said: What is with you creating strawmen by ascribing motives to others? Well, you did that to me yesterday. It wasn't pretty or acurate. Buddy, you can't have it both ways.
Hortenzie said- Adamah you said: What is with you creating strawmen by ascribing motives to others? Well, you did that to me yesterday. It wasn't pretty or acurate. Buddy, you can't have it both ways.
Uh, who are you again? Sorry, but I don't remember you.
Why not raise the objection in THAT thread, so everyone can see if your charge is valid in the original context it appeared?
Because in this thread, you're playing the OT card of tu quoque ("you did it, too"), without backing it by any evidence (so it's an unsupported claim).
Hortenzie, do you care to actually answer the OP's question or engage in the discussion, rather than looking for excuses to NOT answer?
Comatose said-
Thats a sentiment I actually had my father express. That the people over there are like animals. The young kids already hate the Jews. So all of them had to die. Scary thing is that the society encourages this type of thinking.
Yeah, that's classic in-group justification (AKA post-hoc rationalization) which often involves dehumanizing the victims of hate crimes by comparing them to animals (at least, in Judeo-Christian religions which don't recognize any value in animal life, unlike Buddhist philosophies and Hindu religions). It's a way to make the guilt of killing fellow humans disappear.
Adam
adam!
So, 'MAN' gave other men permission to buy and sell humans. The 'MAN' in your metaphorical reading were immoral then, since modern men have long-ago abolished institutionalized slavery, recognizing that owning humans robs them and the owners of dignity, since people are not possessions.
yes, yes, and ...yes!!
lol, why are you arguing me then? we both agree that man throughout history has been dissapointing in treating his fellow man. this is FACTUAL. It HAPPENED, and continues to happen even today despite all the progress.
...are you arguing that 'God' (the ancient bearded man in heaven) does this? that is what Confused is asking.
Why DOES man commit atrocities against man? the reasons are many though not justified...
Your argument in defense of the Bible's "God" is vapid, since you seemingly refuse to acknowledge that the question is NOT about the name given to the individual who set up the practice, but the ACTION itself: the violation of human rights (eg slavery) is not swept away or dismissed, simply by playing such labelling games and claiming mistaken identity.
where did you get the idea that i'm defending the actions of 'God'?? If i say that 'God' in this sense is man, that is NOT defending such actions.
Adamah - again, if you actually read what people say, instead of just listening to the sound of your own voice, you would know I did answer the question. it's just a few posts above my comment to you.
Holy Simoly, Monsieur.
CAA asked this:
I have a neighbor around the corner who is a preacher and we talked, he told me that the Old Testament is not for Christians so he doesn't concentrate on the intricate details of a failed religion. This statement made no sense and I just got frustrated and began talking about needing a new water softener.
Anyway is there truly a valid reason to believe that the actions of the Old Testament God are in some way valid?
NOTE he specifically clarified that he was talking about "Old Testament God" (AKA Jehovah) in an attempt to squash your brand of time-wasting and vapid excusiology as a defense.
Not to be deterred, you responded with the pseudo-intellectual "it's only metaphorical" defense (which just happens to be an excuse commonly offered by Xians, BTW, to excuse God's horrific and amoral actions) combined with an ID shift of Jehovah being 'MAN':
Monsieur said- confused, you are only scratching on the very top surface of the subject that you are trying to understand.
if it doesn't make literal sense in the deepest part of your mind, its for a reason. What you are reading in the old testament is metaphorical, symbolic. The extreme reactions of the 'God' of the old testament, are the reactions of MAN. Man can be very loving and caring, he can also be hateful and vengeful. Remember this when you read the old testament and it will make a lot more sense to you.
And despite your many posts, you still haven't answered the question the OP asked:
CAA asked- Anyway is there truly a valid reason to believe that the actions of the Old Testament God are in some way valid?
Still waiting for an answer.....
Adam
The god of the Old Testament is just a reflection of the culture and time period that the Old Testament was written in. Gods in that time period were expected to be capricious and violent. I think we're trying to project the values and morality backward on a time period where they don't apply.
Christianity was just a facelift on an archaic religion for a new audience, IMO. Not that any of that excuses what the god of the OT is portrayed as doing, it is cruel and completely incompatible with christianity's depiction of a loving god. The OT played a big part in my road to atheism.
Just my two cents
holy frijole adam!
here is Confused's opening to the OP -
How are we able to do this.
This is not an attempt to stir the pot or cause confusion but I was sitting here thinking of all the really horrid things that the Old Testament god did to people.
Confused must assume that the God of the OT as HE understands him to exist was real. EXCEPT HE ISN'T!!! LOL!
CAA asked- Anyway is there truly a valid reason to believe that the actions of the Old Testament God are in some way valid?
no! there isn't ANY VALID reason to abuse another human. Except, God of OT (as Confused understands him to be) didn't abuse anyone EITHER!! Becase...HE DOESN'T EXIST!!
It's like asking, "Is Santa Claus really acting fair when not delivering gifts via chimeny to naughty kids???"
lol, adam
Hortenzia said-
Adamah - again, if you actually read what people say, instead of just listening to the sound of your own voice, you would know I did answer the question. it's just a few posts above my comment to you.
Uh, I see it's back on page one (and we're now on page two), so apparently we cross-posted (it happens).
Hortenzia said- Everything people say about God and every time people claim to talk for God you have to take with a grain of salt. Unless God comes and puts us straight there are no answers. Everything else is just opinions. Including this comment.
Yeah, that kind of waffling is ignoring the point that God SHOULD be able to communicate His wishes for mankind in an clear, unambiguous manner, and the fact is, OT God DID do so, on the issue of slavery.
The real problem is the Bible makes it perfectly clear that Jehovah ended up on the WRONG side of the slavery issue, since God was clearly FOR it: eg He allowed Noah to establish the institution of slavery with the curse of Ham (genesis 10, the first time the word 'slavery' appears in the Bible), God regulated it under Mosaic Law (eg Exodus 21), and Jesus even used the concept of slavery as a metaphor in his parables, and offered the story of a slave owner who seemingly felt it as justified to murder his slave for failing to follow his orders.
Are you for or against slavery? Is it morally-wrong to own other humans, to do whatever you want with them as you see fit (including putting them to death)?
Adam
Monsieur, you're playing word games: you may have forgotten that a large % of the World's population DO believe in a God who exists, and has an effect on their lives.
In America, up to 75% of the populace believe in exactly such a personal God, and worse, they insist on inserting their beliefs into public policy by attempting to stop science education, politics, etc. You've never heard of the Tea Party and likes of Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann, wherever you live?
Pyramid God said-
The god of the Old Testament is just a reflection of the culture and time period that the Old Testament was written in. Gods in that time period were expected to be capricious and violent. I think we're trying to project the values and morality backward on a time period where they don't apply.
The REAL question is, what makes believers think that morality that is long-proven to be immoral and based on the best science of the period still be given respect some 2,500 yrs AFTER it was used as the legal code in an agrarian/pastoral society emerging in the Bronze Age?
Adam
