Why do so-called believers need my approval or that of any atheist?

by Band on the Run 47 Replies latest jw friends

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  rebel8
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  Band on the Run

  Notice Shirley yet again contributing no ideas or thoughts. She only can do snark. Perhaps she says something with content when I am away. As I've said before, I have far more respect for Shelby or TEC b/c whether I agree or don't, they have some heft.

  I don't know about others but I can never, ever trust or believe in anything the way I once believed in Jehovah. The Witnesses rid you of certainty forever. It is hard to trust any group after the Witnesses. Some of you who claim belief after the Witnesses may feel more confident with time. When I joined my present church, I met with one of the first female priests. She was also a nun and analyst. Although I studied for confirmation class, I felt I did not believe in Christ the way I believed in Jehovah. My decision was not to be baptized and confirmed.

  She raised an interesting point I failed to consider. She asked me how old I was when I was a Witness. I said I was born-in and did believe until I was about ten. Jehovah became a monster in my view. My teachers and neighbors were so nice. How could any nice god destroy them? She said did I truly not believe in Christ or did I no longer believe the way I did at five? She pointed out that I was five when I had certainty. Was it certainty or believe and you will be loved. My cousins received special attention for attending meetings. Yes, I sold my soul for a Carvel ice cream cone and a respite from the violence at home. Oh, we also had winter gifts. You could redeem more grandmother time if you attended meetings. If I had been Roman Catholic, my view of Jesus would change as I aged. Did I read the same books I did at five? I started laughing. My mind reframed the question. Do I have faith and certainty consistent with being in my early twenties? Yes. The church does not require blind faith the way the Witnesses do. My baptism and confirmation proceeded. The bishop flubbed his lines but I survived.

  I miss the certainty sometimes but I am no longer five. Being five had its problems.
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  fulltimestudent

  The Witnesses rid you of certainty forever.

  Yes! That's true - we learned to "trust" implicitly in an illusion (the existence of divinities, the hope of the kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, etc, etc.) But we came to see that it was all an illusion and this escaped. Our minds were set free, we no longer saw a philosophical certainty.

  We can now ask questions, and walk away when fobbed off.

  As a Chinese scholar encouraged a few hundred years ago:

  A student must first of all learn to doubt.

  Zheng Yi (1033-1107)

  Isn't mental freedom wonderful.

  This is a sketch of Zheng Yi, that is certainly not to life as it was made centuries later, but it's the best I can find (smile)

  
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  Band on the Run

  My faith with questions is much stronger than the childish certainty I once had. Jesus would be fine with questions. A priest once remarked that church was a community of the faithful asking questions as a community. As Cofty said, No God would allow suffering. Jung came to the same conclusion. Suffering is the basic impediment to belief in God. Why would God demand his own son's suffering and death? The story of Abraham and Isaac terrifies many Jews. There is no way you can say that such a God should be allowed to exist. The Bible account never details how Isaac felt as Abraham drew the knife.

  I have so many questions. Most humans do. Many churches allow you to doubt. Doubt is normal. Perhaps that is why these Spirit people seem arrogant to me. Oh, I have God's love b/c I hear voices. I studied this in college and afterwards. Paul repeatedly attacks those who would drawn distinctions of status within the church. Paul expressly states that speaking in tongues is a gift but the least useful of any gift. It does not include. Paul was into agape meals. All Christians sharing a common meal. This Spirit stuff is just not Pauline Christian. Dominic Crossan analyses it well. Elaine Pagels explained that many saw Gnosticism as a danger in the church. Gnostics claimed they had secret knowledge imparted to them. They tended to be intellectuals and well off in socioeconomic terms. As more and more documents are found, we know more and more about what Paul wrote. Wayne Meeks is another Pauline scholar.

  Oh, my , she reads books! Oh, no!
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  friendaroonie

  Well said.
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  This_suit_doesnt_fit

  "To the mystic, emotions are tools of cognition, and wishes take precedence over facts. He seeks to escape the risks of a quest for knowledge by obliterating the distinction between consciousness and reality, between the perceiver and the perceived, hoping that an automatic certainty and an infallible knowledge of the universe will be granted to him by the blind, unfocused stare of his eyes turned inward, contemplating the sensations, the feelings, the urgings, the muggy associational twistings projected by the rudderless mechanism of his undirected consciousness. Whatever his mechanism produces is an absolute not to be questioned; and whenever it clashes with reality, it is reality that he ignores.

  Since the clash is constant, the mystic's solution is to believe that what he perceives is another, 'higher' reality—where his wishes are omnipotent, where contradictions are possible and A is non-A, where his assertions, which are false on earth, become true and acquire the status of a 'superior' truth which he perceives by means of a special faculty denied to other, 'inferior,' beings. The only validation of his consciousness he can obtain on earth is the belief and the obedience of others, when they accept his 'truth' as superior to their own perception of reality." -Ayn Rand
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  Oh Gawd

  In the words of the great thinker Bertrand Russell:

  "The trouble with the world is the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"
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  Ruby456

  botr- re your op - please take your own advice as surely what you are saying works both ways - remember how many fingers are pointing back - are you nuts? cofty lovable - lmao
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  Phizzy

  Thanks BOTR for the Thread, and for your posts. It always amuses me when the believers get all strident about our "doubts", and yet they cannot provide a scintilla of testable, satisfactory evidence for what they believe.

  I think, commendably, you have followed your own advice, you react well when people oppose your personal beliefs. I think that is because you hold your beliefs in the manner of what I call a "Scientific" Christian. Just as the Scientist will adapt his conclusions as new evidence emerges, you are open minded enough to do the same with your faith.

  That is the difference between your good self and those believers who get terribly "precious" about their position when we are not prepared to give it any credence, which of course it does not deserve.

  As said above, they are entrenched. (read closed-minded).
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  jhine

  BotR I am confused . in a post above you state that Paul says that speaking in tongues is a gift , not the most useful but a gift . I am presuming that you mean from the Holy Spirit , please correct me if I am wrong . However I have just read on another thread in a post by you "speaking in tongues - whoa demons " Am I missing something here ? Was it the context of the other post ?

  Also could you clarify the phrase "mistakenly consider themselves believers " How do you judge who is a believer and who is not ?

  I agree with much of what you have posted above , and you make valid points about doubts . of course every believer has doubts from time to time , and rightly so . We must always question why we believe and what we believe .

  I consider myself a Christian and am happy to mix with atheists and agnostics and even other Christians !! Also I do not need or seek validation from others about my faith , I come onto this site not to convert or argue but to find out more about helping JWs see the problems with the Watchtower . If they wish to continue as JWs fine but I think that they should know the truth about the "Truth " . If I can be of any use to anyone on here great , but many on here have been very helpful to me and I am grateful for that .

  Jan