How would you counter these common JW arguments?

by Leander 18 Replies latest jw friends

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  Leander

  As I mentioned before in previous posts I'm trying to prepare myself for an exit of the borg. So what I've been doing over the last few days is thinking of ways to counter the questions that I know will be directed to me. In particular how would you go about responding to the following questions?

  If you leave the truth how will you be following the scripture "do not be forsaking the gathering of yourselves together"?

  In turn that questions is usually followed up by them loosely quoting Peter where else are you going to go to? (Thanks to the people on this board I realize now that Peter said who and not where, but most JWs insist that you must be with a group (theirs) in order to serve God)

  A few months back I was speaking with an elder about the scripture in Deuteronomy pertaining to false prophecy. He basically tried to pass it off by saying that scripture only applied to the false prophets of the other nations during that time period. While I disagree with his notion that the scripture has only a limited scope I would like to be able to use other scriptural texts of idenitifying false prophets. Any suggestions?

  I realize some of my questions and posts are a bit rendundant, but please bear with me. I'm still kind of nervous about the whole ordeal, this is probably the biggest decision I've ever made in my 29 years.

  thanks for any info
• 

  flower

  I cant help you with your questions but FYI its not going to matter how you counter or what you say to answer their questions. If they are fully indoctrinated and have given their minds over to the borg, in my experience, the better your answers are the more they will start hiding behind the JW shield. They will start spewing out things like 'wait on jehovah to reveal the answer' or if they accept your answer they will say things like 'the light will get brighter when the time is right' or 'dont run ahead of jehovahs org'.

  flower
• 

  AlanF

  If you plan on remaining a Christian, you can tell the elders that you certainly plan not to forsake gathering with other Christians. Of course, that could get you into trouble over "joining yourself to a false religion". Catch-22 here, but that's one of the nasty things about the JWs.

  As for JW leaders being false prophets, Luke 21:8 and its context is extremely powerful. The scripture is not just about people coming and claiming to be Christ himself. It could not be, because it states that people would come in Christ's name and say, "I am He". He who? Someone special, of course. There is a 1964 WT article that states that such people would come and claim to be Christ's representatives. Once you establish that, the rest is easy. Do JW leaders claim to be Christ's representatives? Sure! Have JW leaders consistently proclaimed, "the time is at hand!"? Sure! All you have to do to prove this is look at the many book and booklet titles they've published, like The Time Is At Hand, The Kingdom Is At Hand, God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approaced, etc. Today they still proclaim "Armageddon is right around the corner!"

  AlanF
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  ozziepost

  G'day Leander,

  I guess the first thing to be said is this: You don't have to explain anything to them. If you are preparing to carry out what you have already resolved, why ask their permission, as it were? Just do it.

  Flower makes a valid point that nothing you say will make any difference. I believe your action will speak volumes. Remember that saying "Actions speak louder than words". So many are leaving that, despite their best efforts at making new converts, their numbers are decreasing.

  If you must say something I favour speaking about the organisation taking the place of Jesus as the Mediator. The organisation is viewed in such worshipful light that the Dubs are committing idolatry.

  They readily acknowledge that they are only imperfect men, yet their writings and regulations and teachings are treated as though they were the inspired word of God. Certainly a bound volume of The Watchtower carries the same authority as The Bible with the elders. Just listen to the talks from the platform and listen to how many times the organisation or its writings ("the outline") is used as support for whatever is being said.

  Good luck in your preps.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  dedalus

  In a way, Flower is right -- how you answer won't matter to them. But, it certainly matters to you, and you want to make sure that you can look back and feel good about the way you handled things.

  If you leave the truth how will you be following the scripture "do not be forsaking the gathering of yourselves together"?

  "You are welcome at my house anytime, and I hope I'll be welcome at yours. Whatever happens, I'm certainly not going to shun people for following their Christian consciences."

  In turn that questions is usually followed up by them loosely quoting Peter where else are you going to go to?

  Just because you don't know where to go doesn't mean the place you're in is okay. Being uncertain about the future doesn't nullify the fact that you are certain about other things.

  A few months back I was speaking with an elder about the scripture in Deuteronomy pertaining to false prophecy. He basically tried to pass it off by saying that scripture only applied to the false prophets of the other nations during that time period. While I disagree with his notion that the scripture has only a limited scope I would like to be able to use other scriptural texts of idenitifying false prophets. Any suggestions?

  Sorry, but no. I try to avoid talking with Witnesses about the Bible, because they only hear the verses they want to hear, in the way they want to hear them. Plus I don't believe in the Bible, and if perchance that comes out, I'd be really screwed.

  I realize some of my questions and posts are a bit rendundant, but please bear with me. I'm still kind of nervous about the whole ordeal, this is probably the biggest decision I've ever made in my 29 years.

  You're going to be left behind for making this decision, whether you are marked or disfellowshipped or whatever. Just make sure you are comfortable with the way that happens.

  Dedalus
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  Scully

  Leander:

  While I commend you for your desire to be honest and forthright about leaving the JWs, I fear that it will be an exercise in futility. Flower is absolutely right, that any reasoning with them will fall on deaf ears, any scriptures you cite will be considered to be taken out of context, and any view contrary to WTS dogma will be considered apostate.

  Let me ask you something. Why do you even need to tell them anything? You know yourself that JWs don't give the "whole truth" to people they are trying to convert so that they put these people at a disadvantage in terms of making a truly informed choice about becoming JWs.

  When I was leaving I realized early on that whomever I discussed my concerns with regarding JW doctrine etc (even when I stressed and was promised confidentiality) it didn't take long before what questions and concerns I had were the talk of the whole congregation. Not only that, they were embellished with each re-telling of the gossip. (In one instance an elder called me to ask me why I wanted to shoot and kill everyone at the Kingdom Hall, which was nowhere near what I had said.) After a couple of incidents like this, I no longer felt the need to "share" anything with any JWs.

  You might want to try missing meetings for a month to see if they even notice before you say anything that could get you branded as an apostate. If they don't call after a couple of meetings, it's pretty obvious that they don't demonstrate the "love among themselves" that Jesus said his true disciples would have. Then just hang them with that, without going into anything else.

  Love, Scully

  
  
• 

  Leander

  Flower - At first I was going to just leave without any explanation what so ever, but now I'm thinking that I want to walk away after I expose some of the fraudulent teachings. Besides to be completely honest I kind of have some ulterior motives of letting everyone know a I have opposing viewpoints

  Alan F - Thats exactly the kind of scripture I was looking for. One of my plans is to run down the list of all the failed prophecies and then immediately read numerous scriptures that show how the WTS fits the role of the false prophet. Thanks a lot, if you know of any more scriptures like that please let me know.

  Ozzie - Excellent point, for a group who claims that they know they are imperfect they sure make a point to force their viewpoints down the throats of others.

  Dedalus - It sounds like you and I might have similar thoughts on religion. To be perfectly honest my faith in the bible is somewhere between very little and non existent. But the controversial side of me wants to use the bible to expose the WTS for what they really are.

  Scully - For the most part I realize that my reasoning with the elders probably won't make a big difference. But however it might make it easier for me to accomplish some other goals that I won't get into right now.
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  Liberty

  Hi Leander,

  If I were you I would attempt a quiet fading away rather than a direct confrontation. Why burn all your bridges if it is not necessary? I don't know your circumstances but most of the time, if you have not made an issue of your discoveries about the true nature of the Watchtower Cult with other JWs, you can get away with not attending without so much as a visit from the busy Elders. Even if they are extra zealous and ask to meet with you as long as you just answer "yes" to their question about the Society being Jehovah's spirit directed earthly organization they will be satisfied that you are not a threat but are just "spiritually weak". I think most of us agree that trying to reason with brain washed people will do neither yourself nor them any good. They will not discuss or think about what you are trying to tell them but will automatically go into full denial and shun mode. If you have a lot of family and friends among the JWs don't risk all the stress for the very small chance of waking someone up to reality. Most folks must gradually develop doubts on their own before they will consider listening to anti-JW facts and you will be more effective in reasoning with these people than hard core Elders who are programmed to shut off their ears and minds at the first sign of "apostacy" no matter how well you present the evidence before their kangaroo courts. If you don't have alot invested socially with the JWs then I'd say go for a full fledged exposure of this Cult as you leave on the off chance that someone might take your points to heart and save themselves from this waste of time known as the Watchtower Society. Ultimately, you know best.

  Good Luck!
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  bjc2012

  Leander,

  The only reason that you need for leaving should be that you are following Jesus' admonition recorded at Matthew 24:15,16, which reads: Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains." You can show them WT articles that proclaim the UN to be the 'disgusting thing." You might then ask them if it is true that the UN is the 'disgusting thing' then how would they explain the Watchtower Society becoming an NGO in association with the UN for nearly ten years. They will probably give you the library card explanation. You could counter with the thought that no matter what the explanation is, any association with the UN is wrong especially since they condemn every other religion for doing this very thing. Therefore, in your opinion, this association constitutes what Jesus was warning his followers about and that you are going to follow his advise and leave now as you don't want to wait until they 'place the beast' as it would be too late to leave then. You do not need to answer any other questions as you've already given them a scriptural reason for leaving. If you need any information on the UN situation, you can find it all on the Scandals forum.

  bjc
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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hi, Leander

  Several have already offered good advice, but here I will give some specific suggestions should you find need for them.

  If you leave the truth how will you be following the scripture "do not be forsaking the gathering of yourselves together"?

  You're not leaving truth. Pursuing truth is a lifelong exercise and you don't contemplate a time when that would change for you. You relish the company of people that live as Christians as far as you can tell, and that desire has not diminished. You do not plan on curtailing any association you see as Christian and that incites people to love and fine works out of love of our Creator and His son, the Christ. Whenever you meet and share company with someone that manifests Christian conduct then you feel you are gathering with a Christian. It's just that simple.

  In turn that questions is usually followed up by them loosely quoting Peter where else are you going to go to? (Thanks to the people on this board I realize now that Peter said who and not where, but most JWs insist that you must be with a group (theirs) in order to serve God)

  You haven't gone anywhere. You made a choice to follow Jesus and that has not changed. Is their someone else they feel it's better that you should follow?

  A few months back I was speaking with an elder about the scripture in Deuteronomy pertaining to false prophecy. He basically tried to pass it off by saying that scripture only applied to the false prophets of the other nations during that time period. While I disagree with his notion that the scripture has only a limited scope I would like to be able to use other scriptural texts of identifying false prophets.

  Don't worry so much about whether someone IS a false prophet as you do about determining whether what someone says IS true. At the end of the day truth is what counts, not what brand of cologne the person who says it wears. In concept the text you speak of warns people to watch for error for the sake of truth, that has not changed. Of course, the WTS has made a boatload of errors! But some of what they taught/teach is true, which shows why we should focus on determining trueness more instead of labeling.