HELP! NEED INPUT/EXPERIENCES

by stevieb1 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • stevieb1
    stevieb1

    I have come to the conclusion that so many of the Society's doctrines are not scriptural (both major and minor ones) that I can no longer cal it "the truth". I still go to congregation meetings, but I can't see myself going for much longer - a bit of a crisis of conscience. However, there seems to be one piece of seemingly logical advice from the elders that I cannot come to terms with despite what I have found.

    Even amongst the elders that have spoken to me there seems to be some who do not accept the entire body of doctrines of the Society, yet because they see the fruitage of Matthew 7:17, 20 being expressed within the congregation and not elsewhere they stay and advise me to stay too. I said that there are true Christians in many churches, and they replied that it would not be right for me to worship in a Catholic Church or some other were people are disunited over what they believe, who lie and cheat and commit adultery, when there is somuch unity and love within the Jehovah's Witnesses. They say that all worship alike in the organization yet many in Christendom, even in the same churches do not always believe the same even on such doctrines as the Trinity. What they are basically saying is that much about doctrine is not that important when you consider that Christian fruits are far more important.

    They brought up the matter of preaching again - saying that they have never had members of another church preaching the Kingdom of God to them before, hence no other church is fulfilling Matthew 24:14.

    And once again, they brought out the need to stay away from "apostate sites" quoting 1 Timothy 6:3, 4. (mentally diseased, debates about words etc)

    They also said that unity would not be accomplished if one member of the congregation believed one thing and another believed something else - like the churches of Christendom they said. They stated that they cannot find anything in Scripture that supports such a notion.

    They carried on detailing the blessings that God has given to Jehovah's Witnesses in that people's lives have been changed for the better etc etc.And, that all of this could only be accomplished via an organized body of worshippers, not a disunited one.

    Some of these points are difficult to refute. Has anyone else had a similar experience with this Witness-logic? How would you answer?

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Of course you can't say this to them this way, but it happens to be the truth:

    Jehovah's Witnesses are beating, raping, and murdering one another at a rate unprecedented in their 120+ year history.

    The two most alarming aspects of this intra-ogranizational pehonomenon is

    1) this after 120 YEARS of policies (and still can't get it right--eh?)

    2) and the fact that much of this is occuring among SECOND and THIRD generation Witnesses.

    God is not going to give these people a whole PLANET to do this in any time soon...

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Stevie,

    Take it from one who grew up on the Borg and knew nothing about the world other than what the Watchtower Sellers Society told me. What they want you to believe is that they are unique in spreading the gospel, that they are alone in their unity and love, blah, blah. It's been a wonderful life I've had for four decades out of the "society" and I can tell you that a) they are not the only ones preaching the gospel, b) they are not unified or loving let a lone unique about it and there are organizations that tell their members exactly the same thing and they are called "cults".

    I would love to send you an essay I developed for a young JW from Minnesota a couple of years ago that expresses it more bluntly if you would be interested. I'd have to send it from home so if you wish, e-mail me at [email protected].

    cheers, carmel

  • detective
    detective

    I'd be interested to know what they mean when they say no one else is preaching the kingdom of god? What I suspect they mean is that no one else is preaching the good news of the kingdom of god... as defined by the witnesses.
    Of course there are plenty of people who preach the kingdom of god, but they do not seem to qualify because the JWs work under the assumption that other people are just doing it wrong! An example: What they fail to understand is that other religions do not believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven- therefore preaching it would seem a bit absurd, right? However, the witnesses maintain that in order to preach the kingdom of god or "good news" it must sound exactly like they way they perceive it.
    Another example- the blast other religions for affiliating with the United Nations. What they don't recognize is that other religions do not believe that the United Nations is the scarlet colored beast of the bible. Therefore, other religions were not violating their beliefs by associating with the UN. But the witnesses do believe the UN = Scarlet colored beast. So they WTBTS was in violation of it's beliefs in affiliating.

    The problem is that the 'Towerites assume they have the correct understanding of things like the "good news". Working with this conclusion, anyone who interprets it differently would not be preaching the "good news", now would they? So they can get away with saying other religions don't preach the "good news" because they believe they are the only ones who properly understand it.

    No other preachers out there? Really? C'mon, that's ridiculous. What they mean to say is that no one other than witnesses preach witness doctrine. And if you aren't preaching witness interpretations, then you aren't preaching accurately. If you aren't preaching accurately then you must be preaching inaccurately, which is about as good as not preaching at all. So, no one else preaches the kingdom of god, see?

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    ""Some of these points are difficult to refute. Has anyone else had a similar experience with this Witness-logic? How would you answer?""

    Have you read Ray Franz Book, "In Search of Christian Freedom?" It addresses these points quite well.......

  • roybatty
    roybatty

    The “unity” topic, as argued by JWs is so hollow. I get so sick of hearing JWs saying that other churches are filled with wicked people. The people that fill the KH are no different. Of course, you can’t find this out for yourself because you’d be kicked out. Kind of a Catch22 situation.

    Personally, my kids and I go to the local Methodist Church. I can’t say that I agree with everything they teach but am I suppose to? Didn’t the first century Christians also have disagreements over certain doctrines? But on the topic of unity, I am impressed by the Methodist. They are very organized and do a lot of community work. What do the JWs do? Wow, they go door to door. Wow, they can get a few thousand of them together and not riot. Wow, they all believe the same thing. Look at an Amway sales person and you’ll find the same thing. I suppose they’re God’s chosen people.

    I’d remind JW that questions you of one thing. What other religion (Catholic, Baptist, etc.) has gone around time and time again, claiming in God’s name, that the end will come in a certain year. None but the Jehovah’s Witnesses come to mind. And if they use the argument “well, the apostles didn’t correctly understand everything” then ask them to show you where in the Bible they went around and taught as a major doctrine a false prediction or misunderstanding?

  • Francois
    Francois

    Apparently the elders you're talking to have their heads where the sun never shines. Blinders on. Let's take a peek at the realities:

    People in the churches lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery? And JWs don't? What elder you know isn't obsessed with "keeping the congregation clean"? What do they mean by that? They mean kicking out people who lie, cheat, steal and commit adultry. The big difference is that when JWs kick out people for doing these things, they ruin families, friends, and relationships of a lifetime permanently. As a result JWs have the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide of all religions. When people in the churches are disciplined for these things, their personal relationships are carefully kept intact. Which shows more love?

    The people in the churches don't all believe the same thing? You said yourself that even among the elders, they do not accept the entire body of doctrines. And neither do you, right? They are referring to the scripture "In unity I shall set them like a flock in a pen." There is a world of difference between unity and uniformity. The JWs want uniformity, like Hitler and the Nazis did. People can be in unity, love each other and portray the fruitage of the spirit for all to see without being in spiritual lock-step with each other, behaving like automotons popped out of the same dough with the same cookie-cutter. Christ came to set us free from such Pharisical thinking. "Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God"? Lack of intellectual freedom is the worst form of slavery. There's no freedom in mind control.

    No other church preaches in the community? Every church I know of has outreach programs of some kind. One example from a Baptist congregation in Atlanta. They get lists of people getting new phone service in their area. A pair of people from the church goes by with welcome packages for the new move ins. They offer to help with the practicalities of everyday life until they settle down. Then they follow up with offers to pick them up on Sunday and take them to the church. If that ain't filfilling Mt 24, I'll eat your hat. That might not fit the JWs definition of preaching, but who died and left the JWs in charge of making all the definitions? These church folk DO NOT have to whip out arcane books explaining occult teachings on blood, the trinity, disfellowshipping and other nonsense and make such an effort to retrain how people think. Jehovah's Witnesses don't preach the truth. They sell bad publications door to door and then attempt indoctrination into a cultic environment. That ain't preaching, brother.

    People's lives have been changed for the better without ever seeing a JW or the inside of a kingdom hall. In fact, most of the people on this site have had their lives changed for the better BECAUSE they're no longer associated with Jehovah's Witnesses.

    "Debates about words?" Boy does the pot call the kettle black. Do you know of ANY religion that pounds and pounds and pounds on the orginal meaning of the original word in Aramaic or Hebrew or Greek as the JWs? Why do you think they published the "Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures"? They did it JUST SO they could engage in "debates about words." Now, if that's not hypocritical, I'm the Virgin Mary.

    The churches in Palestine during the first century were NOT in unity as your JW elders claim. The brothers in Jerusalem differed greatly from the brothers in Antioch. The brothers in Jerusalem won that argument. That's just why you don't see so much about Antioch in the scriptures. There WAS no governing body in Jerusalem at the time. The claim that Paul's conversations with the brothers in Jerusalem amounted to seeking their approval for what he was doing is shear nonsense. His ordination came directly from the spirit, the same one that animates you and I and all other seekers today. We need not bow the knee to old farts in New York. And where were the body of worshippers that helped Paul's conversion? There wasn't any. The truth is the truth is you are a minority of ONE. That empty claim says that God is not powerful to affect positive change in an individual. Pretty weak god, if you ask me.

    I don't think these issues and arguments are difficult to refute. Not when you recognize it for the bullshit that it is. I have publically challenged the entire governing body to a public debate. I've repeated the challenge over and over on this site. I know they are aware of it. They refuse to come out and "make a defense of their beliefs." They won't because they can't. And I'm talking about me, alone, on stage before thousands of people taking on the entire governing body and all their piss-ant attorneys. As Gandhi has said, "The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone." I may be dumber than I am valiant, but I'm something they're not, I'M WILLING.

  • Aunty
    Aunty

    Here's a thought:

    If there are elders in the cong that disagree about doctrine, etc, but don't say anything, does that mean they're really "united in one thought"? They may give the impression that they're united, by not allowing anyone to express their disagreements with any particular point the Society makes.

    Example:

    For years my Dad disagreed with shunning non-baptized jw's. This opinion first started when my non-baptized brother was DA'd for smoking. My parents have basically shunned him for over 20 years even though they didn't agree with this particular doctrine. Okay, we all know they changed this "rule" so that non-baptized publishers are DA'd, but not necessarily shunned - but they still rarely speak to him, and he's not included in any family functions. There are other families that associate with DA'd family members because they're no longer viewed like a DF jw.

    Is this unity? I say no. Unity means agreement. So if you don't agree with everything the society publishes, you're not in unity.

    Also, regarding being the only group that witnesses - are you forgetting that time and again jw's are reminded that the way you live your life gives a better witness than going to the KH every week? What about the millions of people leading good, clean lives, loving their kids and just trying to be happy?

  • Francois
    Francois

    OOPS! Punched up POST before I was ready. Anyway, please let me suggest you get ahold of a copy of "The Religions of Man" by Houston Smith. It's available in paperback and its not expensive. That one book puts the lie to very much of what Jehovah's Witnesses claim. After that, take a look at "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. That should shut the case in your mind about who and what Jehovah's Witnesses are.

    And finally, the reason JWs don't want you on the internet (or anyone else they control at the moment) is they know that the real truth about the truth is available online. The Internet is the worst thing ever to happen to the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. JWs are a dangerous, divisive, religious cult; a purveyor of putrid publications, nattering nabobs of negativism...and I say fuck 'em.

    Frank

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Hi stevieb1

    Bottom line is . . . . Do you want to be a Witness?

    If the answer is yes, then no doctrine error could make you leave because you have the hope they will someday change to fit your perceptions.

    If the answer is no . . . Then no doctrine, argument, logic, reason, or threat could make you stay.

    I kicked the Kingdom Hall door on the way out and did not even think of looking for justification for staying or for leaving either. I did not want to be a Witness and I still don't.

    I think it sucks that I have to either suck up to some idiot in an IBM business suit who sold his soul . . . that I have to support the latest insanity from headquarters or be at war with the whole whacky group. But that being the only choice . . . I chose war.

    There is ample justification for staying as well as for leaving. For the true believer, no proof is needed. For the skeptic, no amount of proof is sufficient.

    I think you will stay and if you do leave, you will go back.

    Best wishes either way,

    gb


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