How would you respond?

by MsGrowingGirl20 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  MsGrowingGirl20

  Ok so this is a conversation that I am having with a friend that I really love. I have some points that I want to say but tell me, how would you respond to this email?

  Not gonna try to defend anyone I can really only speak for myself. Girl, it was really hard to maintain contact with you in the beginning. Soon after you stopped coming, I felt like when I reached out to you via text/ phone calls you never responded. Then when we met up in person it felt awkward on both ends. So I decided that maybe email may have been a better way to communicate. So I was pretty happy that you responded! I really didn't want things to be awkward between us again and I didn't want you to feel like we couldn't talk again. It really is my hope that we can have an open and honest relationship. I know that the people that really care about you still miss you but some of them said that when they saw you it was just kinda awkward and I guess they didn't know where to go from there. I think it is unfair to put the blame solely on them though. I'm so sorry that you went through all of that by yourself. I wish I could have helped you to carry that weight. I can't imagine what that conflict must have felt like. In terms of your pursuing secular education I don't think people condemned you for that. Is that the right word? Did you feel like that? Why I ask is that Asa is pursuing her degree and I also know of another sister (in our congregation) that is pursuing a Masters and I don't think they feel like that. I know the other sister said she was strongly discouraged from doing it but still she went ahead and I don't think that she necessarily feels judged. Again I don't know if that's the right word because I'm not too sure what exactly your feelings are concerning the reaction from the congregation. I do think your assumptions about the elders are incorrect though.
  
  In terms of the second part of your email, you mentioned that you don't think that there is only one true religion. Can I ask what you think would constitute a true religion? Why I ask is that if you did a list right do you think many religions would fit? I feel like all religions teach so many varying things that it would be hard to come up with multiple religions that fit the same criteria. BUT something just occurred to me, would their doctrines play a major part on your list? So I'm not sure right, but in reading your e-mail, you made a comment about trying to be a person of principle and I got the impression that although you believe there is more than one true religion, you're not really interested in associating with any groups. Why I ask is that in the bible it speaks about association so that brings another question to mind - On your list does true religion necessarily have to follow the bible? I also noticed that you refer a lot to God and not Jehovah, is there any reason for that? (I hope that didn't come out bad! :/) You highlighted a number of issues with the Witnesses and you say that they are not THE only true religion, but do you think they are one of them? I know that you are disappointed and disenchanted with this organization but I think you need to consider that there is no group of infallible people on the earth and no group is without its failings. I am not trying to justify any of it at all. I just hope that you know that in all religions you will find things that will disturb you and that you can not reconcile. It is my belief though that there is only one true God and there can only be one acceptable religion to him. Remember the definition of religion - the way in which a group of people worship God. In examining the bible it has always been like that. In the days of Noah, only one group of people were saved. In the days of the Israelites only one group of people had Jehovah's approval. In the first century CE, only one group of people followed the teachings of Jesus. It stands to reason that today there can only be one group of people worshipping in the way that Jehovah approves. Each person must decide for himself which group that is.
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  Julia Orwell

  In the first century CE, only one group of people followed the teachings of Jesus. It stands to reason that today there can only be one group of people worshipping in the way that Jehovah approves.

  Interestingly, there were many different Christian groups in the first century. Paul even mentions them: "I to Paul and I to Apollos..." There were the Gnostics as well as the Pauline Christians.

  And that bit about only one group today...it's typical JW hash. I've had the same email and now that person shuns me completely, even though I did nothing to refute it and just said, "I'm happy where I am..." It's a typical JW fallacy that there 'must be one Organisation today who have Jehovah's approval...'. But why? Why would any of them have Jehovah's approval? What about no organisation, but individuals from many organisations? But ultimately these questions will lead you nowhere with your friend. They will lead to you being shunned.

  In short, I don't have the answer. Your friend fires all the JW guns, the 'one organisation', the 'Jehovah the name of God', the 'imperfect humans..." and so on and so forth. You can refute them point by point quite easily, but I don't think it will improve relations with your friend. If your friend is going to shun you, it is starting already.
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  ABibleStudent

  Hi MsGrowingGirl20, What do you want to accomplish with your email? Is your friend being shunned or is she shunning you?

  I do feel that your paragraphs are too long and difficult to read.

  It might help to just write that you love your friend and that you miss talking with her like you use to. If your friend is shunning you, would it hurt to write her saying that you do not want to force your beliefs on her and that life is too short to talk about the WTBTS with her.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
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  Cold Steel

  Wow.

  The way I’ve always responded to such people is that religion is revealed. Noah didn’t decide there would be a flood and then appoint himself and his family the sole survivors. God came to Noah. God acted and Noah and his family were acted upon. In the days of the Egyptian captivity, God appeared to Moses, calling him by revelation and directing the work to be done. There were no scripture students who appointed themselves to positions of power and then called down “invisible” plagues which could neither be felt, heard or perceived.

  And so it was throughout history. God chose his servants, called them and ordained them. Then he directed and guided them in those callings. The Jehovah’s Witnesses speak truly about manmade religions; however, ever since Charles T. Russell, every leader, every elder and overseer, every member of the Governing Body are self-called and self-appointed. Whereas God flooded the earth, the choosing of the Bible Students was an “invisible” event; whereas Moses parted the Red Sea, Jesus came in 1914 (invisibly) to cast Satan to Earth.

  The question is one of spiritual integrity. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established,” the law states. Yet there are no witnesses to the invisible events. At Sinai, Yahweh appeared to Moses, Joshua, Aaron and seventy elders of Israel. But instead of being invisible, it was actual:

  Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. (Exodus 24)

  It did not say that God was invisible, did it? In fact, the elders ate and drank in Jehovah’s presence!

  The Catholics have the same problem with the doctrine of transubstantiation. When a priest blesses the holy emblems of Christ, the people are told, a great miracle occurs, and one that cannot be comprehended or collaborated (that’s the beauty of it). It happens when the bread and wine of the Eucharist are miraculously transformed by the priest into the actual body and blood of Jesus, although to the people it remains quite invisible. A hundred microbiologists with a hundred electron microscopes could not detect it. Another miracle! It’s like the fastest gun in the West.

  Wanna see it again?

  When Jesus was baptized, he had two of the greatest witnesses one could hope for: the Father and the Holy Spirit. When he called his apostles, he ordained them, saying, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you.” Every miracle he performed was witnessed. When Jesus went up to the mount of transfiguration, he took with him Peter, James and John, three witnesses of the event. And when he was resurrected, he told his apostolic witnesses to inspect his wounds. “Handle me and see,” he said, “for a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have.”

  In the Dec. 1, 2013 issue of the Watchtower, we’re told, “When Jesus arrives invisibly with his angels, he will judge mankind.” And when it rhetorically asks, “In what form does Jesus return? He was resurrected as an invisible spirit person.”

  Is this even remotely what the scriptures teach? “Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have.” And what of the prophet Zechariah, who testifies that at the conclusion of the battle of Armageddon, Jehovah will appear to save his beleaguered people:

  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of [Armageddon]. And the land shall mourn.... (Zech. 12:10-12)

  Here Jehovah says: “...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced....” If Jesus was resurrected with an invisible spirit body and will come invisibly, how will it be possible for the Jews to look upon him? And how will they know he was pierced. The land shall mourn because the Jews will realize that their fathers handed over their Messiah to the Romans to be lifted up and killed. Zechariah promises us there will be witnesses to this event, which will happen on the Mount of Olives; yet the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society can’t even acknowledge that Jesus will return to the Jews and minister to them. The centerpiece of their religion is Armageddon, and they fail to understand what it is, what it leads up to it and where it will be.

  John also assures us that Yahweh will raise up two prophets, who will give their lives protecting the city of Jerusalem. (See Rev. 11) And he calls them “witnesses.” They also will minister to the Jews for a number of years, again fulfilling the requirement that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

  Who amongst the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses can claim to being called by God and having at least two others testify that it’s so? If they’re wrong about the resurrection of Jesus, and if they’re wrong about Jesus’ return and if they’re mistaken about the nature and events leading up to the biblical Armageddon, then they have testified against themselves.

  That’s what I would tell your friend.

  .
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  LisaRose

  I would just say that you are questioning things, you are seeking answers. You could say that you have a lot of concerns about the Jehovah's Witnesses, because you have found out about things that are very troubling, that you are concerned that they discourage you from looking up things on your own, that you are told to only look at the society's literature. But you feel that a true religion would stand up to scrutiny, not be afraid of it. There are also concerns about predictions that have been made that turned out to be wrong. As a Cristian you value honesty, but you have a problem with an organization that is not honest.

  If you still believe in the bible, you could say that you want to follow the bible, but you don't see any scripture that says you have to follow the interpretation of one group of men. The bible says that what will save you is belief in Jesus Christ, not belief in the Governing body. The bible also doesn't say to condemn fellow Christians who interpret the bible differently. You can say that you may not believe in some teachings of other Christian churches, but that you can no longer treat the people as less than you, because that is not showing Christian Love. What if it was me that made believed something wrong, what would Jesus say when I condemned another? When the Watchtower makes a mistake, it no big deal, they are just imperfect men, or the light is getting brighter, but when another church teaches something wrong, they are Babylon the great and evil, and that is a double standard.
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  Crazyguy

  I would respond with asking 'do you think God is love', and if so why would he be with one group. Yes one group in the past to show that the seed Jesus would come threw Abraham but now still only one group? The quote her the scripture where Jesus says were 2 or more are together in my name their i will be also. You may want to follow up with what Paul talked about in 1 corth 1 and chapter 11 where by he was talking about how some follow apollos some follow chephas but they dont matter who died for us any way? Then in chapter 11 he talkes of the righteous ones coming out of the sects or religions and to manifest themselves. Not one righteous sect or religion but rightoues ones. This blows up the idea of only one true religion, remember Jesus said where there are 2 or more in my name there I will be also.
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  Retrovirus

  Hi MsGG,

  I would say that if God is a wiser and more loving father than our earthly parents, I cannot imaging the He would condemn all his children to oblivion except one small group. A small group, moreover, that admitted to being led by "imperfect men" and issuing false alarms.

  Caveat - i'm a never-jw and so don't know how a jw would react to this.
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  Where can you even start with someone that so thoroughly worships the WT Governing Body and their rewritten history of the world? Your friend must sincerely believe that false prophecy is proof that they have the true religion.

  And that's why it gets awkward. You and I have grown up... woken up. But they are still living in the fantasy world where yesterday's truthz become today's apostasy. Their brain is sold out to a 19th century sect that has survived to become a 21st century cult. Their idea of love is to have rocks fall from the sky and smash the heads of billions of innocent people. Of course it's going to become awkward to have to talk to them!
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  quellycatface

  Julia, I like your answer. I've had the same conversation with my JW mum and myself!!! Why would'nt God select whom he wants?? Remember that scripture "I perceive that God is not partial but the man who works righteousness is etc....is acceptable to him."

  The JW's are becoming similar to ancient/modern Israel every minute.

  Q X
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  Black Sheep

  Ask for an example of an article that demonstrates that Asa's pursuing a degree is supported by the WT, that she should be supported by the congregation for decision, and that anyone who gives her a hard time is out of line with official policy.

  Don't give her multiple questions to choose from. Already know the official answer so that she can't trick you.