There's a little Houdini in all of us

by freeflyingfaerie 16 Replies latest jw friends

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  adamah

  fff said-

  I see what you mean...I feel that those who have become members of the JW have ,link by link (through tedious indoctrinization), wrapped themselves in heavy chains. We did it with our own hands. And we did it in harmony with the messages and instructions we were constantly given. And if we were especially good listeners, our chains were wrapped especially snug. The instruction-givers are responsible (which includes already indoctrinated ministers, already bound) and then we were each also responsible for listening. But I don't blame those of us who truly thought we were doing a good thing by living that way. I don't want to look at it that way. I do think those that know better share some guilt (even though I understand how diffidult peer pressure and loss of family can be..And for those with no one to lose...I have no respect).

  Yeah, well on the part in bold, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

  Practically speaking, intent doesn't enter into the picture, when it comes to deciding guilt or innocence: all that matters is if someone did it or not (eg did the person pull the trigger or not? They may have an excuse like self-defense, but that would have to be proven in court). Intention matters very little, since there's an old saying, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." I'm not cutting anyone slack, since it's fundamentally a deadly group dynamic that leads to harm (via refusal of blood); it would cease to exist tomorrow if members refused to play the dysfunctional game.

  Of course, there is no law against joining the JWs, so the 'penalty' I'm speaking of is the moral culpability of being responsible to fellow humans for claiming to KNOW things which no one can reasonably claim certainty for knowing, AKA faith.

  fff said- Taking responsibility by reflecting on how certain choices we each made as individuals led to certain results can help in the healing process. It can help us realize that the choices we make today can bring us further from the dysfunction and to move forward..with hopefully good results

  !

  Adam
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  freeflyingfaerie

  Adam~ good point that "it would cease to exist tomorrow if members refused to play the dysfunctional game."

  As I look at this again, I think I need to make the distinction between responsibility and what I call 'blame' (derrogetory word).

  Yes, everyone who keeps the wheels turning of the JW machine is responsible to some degree for misleading yet others in whatever way (and letting ourselves be mislead in the first). What I don't like to say is that we were to 'blame', because it sounds like we were 'at fault' and 'guilty'. And again, it could technically be said that it is so. But, as I see it we were (the ones who really bought it) acting more as accomplices, and ignorant ones at that. (i know, still to 'blame')

  Mind control is a scary animal.

  I believe that those who leave need to accept responsibility in accepting the fact that we allowed ourselves to be manipulated. We should come to understand what really happened to us...what we allowed to happen, yes. I also believe that we should try to understand ourselves, be kind to ourselves, and know that even though we got taken for a ride, we can be wiser for it and we do have control in our lives.
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  Miss.Fit

  Most born ins did not choose to be raised as a jw. We were spoon fed fantasies and pipe dreams and wrapped in a chain of lies. We were put in the glass cage of guilt not realising we were trapped. Freedom was the illusion. Those who stayed in the middle never realised they were captive. Those who strayed to the edges were the ones that discovered the glass wall.
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  adamah

  FFF said- Yes, everyone who keeps the wheels turning of the JW machine is responsible to some degree for misleading yet others in whatever way (and letting ourselves be mislead in the first). What I don't like to say is that we were to 'blame', because it sounds like we were 'at fault' and 'guilty'. And again, it could technically be said that it is so. But, as I see it we were (the ones who really bought it) acting more as accomplices, and ignorant ones at that. (i know, still to 'blame')

  Well, just to play Devil's advocate, it's good to remember that JWs DO die untimely deaths from feeling coerced by the group to refuse blood transfusions, and under any other circumstances they'd have actual criminal liability for a person's untimely death (if not for the 'free exercise of religion' justification which makes it a protected activity).

  Knowing that it's all based on a flawed New World Translation of Genesis 9 makes it morally reprehensible, such that this atheist sometimes wishes there WERE a God who'd hold all JWs responsible for their collective blood guilt, since the scripture makes it clear that spilled blood requires vengeance from those who played a role in the victim's death.

  FFF said- Mind control is a scary animal. I believe that those who leave need to accept responsibility in accepting the fact that we allowed ourselves to be manipulated. We should come to understand what really happened to us...what we allowed to happen, yes. I also believe that we should try to understand ourselves, be kind to ourselves, and know that even though we got taken for a ride, we can be wiser for it and we do have control in our lives.

  Yup, taking responsbility for joining the group means examining what the pre-existing factors were which made it seem so attractive, in the first place. If people don't identify those 'vulnerabilities', it's only going to be a matter of 'lather, rinse, repeat', etc.

  The ancient Greek philosopher Homer S. Simpson once said, "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen".

  That guy was wise, as it's really true (to a certain extent).

  Of course, most JWs weren't willfully 'lying', or they were also lying to themselves (i.e. in denial, or knew the game but played it in order to avoid loss of family, etc). But point remains that the only ones harmed in the end were the individuals who allowed themselves to go with the will of the group.

  Missfit said-

  Most born ins did not choose to be raised as a jw.

  Yeah, I pity born-ins, as they really don't stand a chance unless they use the opposition of going their own way in the World as an opportunity for personal growth and challenge (although it always could be worse, eg they could be born to a crack-addicted mom, etc. As they say, you cannot pick your parents).

  Adam
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  freeflyingfaerie

  Miss Fit~ True, being born-in and spoon-fed wasn't our choice. Those of us who were raised in it grew up with the chains..and then as we grew to be adults, we kept those chains on and added more (to keep with the analogy). And because we weren't Amish, we rubbed shoulders with people who were 'normal' (giving us ideas of how life might be on the outside)...so we had to try to trick our minds in order to keep up the illusion.

  Adam~ Yes, the JW religion is guilty of severly harming and even killing people through its ridiculous practices. Each individual is not guilty. I believe a large number of the members are innocent 'victims' themselves. Maybe it would be like saying each individual U.S. citizen is guilty for killing Vietnamese people in war. Yes, the government is guilty of it. But each individual citizen (born or naturalized) is not necessarily guilty of what the leaders sanction.
• 

  adamah

  Adam~ Yes, the JW religion is guilty of severly harming and even killing people through its ridiculous practices. Each individual is not guilty. I believe a large number of the members are innocent 'victims' themselves. Maybe it would be like saying each individual U.S. citizen is guilty for killing Vietnamese people in war. Yes, the government is guilty of it. But each individual citizen (born or naturalized) is not necessarily guilty of what the leaders sanction.

  Well, a HUGE difference is that an individual citizen doesn't have the option to not pay taxes to support the military efforts.

  The analogy I use is that as a member of the military, you are expected to comply with the rules of International Law (eg Geneva Convention) and know that you cannot commit 'war crimes', EVEN IF ordered to do so by superior officers. Of course, a pacifist wouldn't join the military, in the first place (they'd be a conscientious objector).

  The problem with the JWs is the enforcement mechanism used is the actions of members, themselves, who collectively act to exert pressure to support the will of the group (via shunning). Thus, ALL members of the JWs are analogous to willful military members who joined under their own stream, and as such, they're culpable for being a member of the group and cannot use the "But I was only following orders" lame excuse after exerting social ostracism (or even the FEAR of it) in order to enforce the will of the group.

  Many people die refusing a blood transfusion simply out of a FEAR of being shunned, without actually being shunned by ANYONE (since they refused blood). That's the insidious nature of social ostracism: it dilutes the sense of applying pressure to individuals (called 'diffusion of responsibility'), such that it's impossible to identify individual perpetrators. HOWEVER, that means that the entire GROUP bears the responsibility for participating in a dysfunctional and harmful dynamic, and if you're a card-carrying member of the group, you carry some blame.

  So I'm not willing to cut anybody slack, simply because it's impossible at times to identity individual culpability: if someone was a JW and they still believe in God, they share bloodguilt for the preventable death(s) that the group caused. If you're an atheist (like me), then you share ethical blame for participating in a religion that causes unnecessary death of others, largely due to ignorance which is no excuse (of course, the individuals who actually DIE pay the ultimate price, and should have the motivation to save their own life).

  Point being, some want to have their cake and eat it, too, claiming how evul the JWs are, but then when it comes time to owning up to THEIR role in supporting a dysfunctional group dynamic, suddenly they want to shy away from claiming it's a deadly group.

  Nope, it IS a deadly dynamic, and it's hypocritical to claim otherwise.

  Adam
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  freeflyingfaerie

  Adam~ I've been thinking about what you wrote. It is extremely sad, but true. Social ostracism is a bitch.