I see the Mormons are in the UK press today, explaining and recanting their racist policies.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/mormon-church-addresses-past-racism
Splash
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
All of these have been competently addressed countless times
...by Mormon apologists lol. Cold Steel - you do your homework from sources not related to FARMS! Trust me it will open your eyes - if you can see past the filters you have.
for interest please address the point that Joseph was a money digger prior to the visions and book of mormon story. Was this a fraudulent activity (looking in a hat at a seerstone, at certain astrological times of the year , telling people how to stand, when to talk, what way to dig in order not to disturb the spirit guarding the treasure that had been buried and 'cursed' so that it was 'slippery')? If this does not raise alarm bells then Cold Steel you have descended into the ridiculous. Joseph was a money digger and a seer way before he had any vision and this was attested by those who employed him. It is a little convenient that he actually then 'finds' some ancient artefacts, in a box, guarded by a spirit, that makes him ritualistically retrieve the contents (shocking him , as per money digging lore, when he tries to get them the wrong way) and then gets him to translate some metal plates (NOT gold - too heavy to run through the woods with!) using a seerstone in a hat (why bother with the plates at all!)
Stop and think. How likely is it that God would create a book like the Book of Mormon, replete with checkable factual flaws (windows, silk, wheels, elephants and so on), have someone translate it using magical techniques (head in a hat, seerstone, magic glasses in spectacles) , allow them to try and sell the copyright, allow someone to steal 1/6 of it so loosing that portion completely - just to teach one guy a lesson? When do your BS filters go off? Please, please take a reality check, go outside, look at the real world and shake away the cobwebs of magic thinking.
The supposed translation lifts heavily from the King James Bible (including real scholarly errors and also doctrinal points he later 'corrects' by inspiration!) and also from this book - http://archive.org/stream/firstbooknapole00gruagoog#page/n17/mode/2up and this one - http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up.
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rawe
Hi Cold Steel,
"Oh, and I certainly didn’t start this topic. Why criticize someone for defending what they believe? Don’t you?"
I started this this topic as a break point in your thread about a religion based on assumptions. Cofty had suggested you have been using the site to proselytize for your LDS faith. I don't know if you would agree with that or not. In any regards you said you joined "because I’m interested in the Jehovah’s Witness religion."
That is what is great about forums like this -- folks interested in Jehovah's Witnesses, beyond the sanitized view presented on jw.org can come here and get a more complete picture.
As I said a few times, I appreciate the interest LDS members might show in the Witnesses, because the interest almost certainly stems from a recognition (even somewhat subconciously) that the faiths are similar. Both began in the 1800s USA, have grown into the millions of members, are world wide, see themselves as restoring a true form of Christianity, yet have separated themselves in practice and doctrine from nominal Christianity.
However, building on Cofty's use of the word proselytizing, I thought you would be interested to know how Ex-JWs in general feel about the possibility of joining the LDS faith. And, I too am interested. When I asked in the OP, I assumed, it now appears correctly, very few would make that move. Several posts said it would be like going from the firepan into the fire.
When you see the good in your faith, it can be perplexing to understand why other's just can't seem to grasp it as well. It is easy to think, the "if only" line of thought. If only, an Ex-JW would listen to this or that Mormon appologist, they would see what I see. If only they would read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. If only they would attend a few services or invite the missionaries in. After all, they surely knew the truth in their pre-existence. In a darker moment, one might reflect on 2 Cor 4:4 to suggest people are being blinded by Satan. Alas, we are all too familiar with this, because it is something we did a lot as Witnesses too.
Eventually, the answer to "if only" comes into focus -- and it is none too pleasant -- that our faith is based on false assumptions that are easily shown. And the false assumption is only one of the problems, once one discovers the 607 BCE date is flawed, they'll soon discover how arguments are presented to support it, engage blantant dishonesty. The Book of Mormon contains multiple chapters of the KJV -- and that is seriously not funny. The KJV is deserving of it's place in the English speaking world because of the hard work it took to produce it and promote it. That information is easily accessed, simply by setting a KJV Bible beside a Book of Mormon and comparing.
Cheers,
-Randy
ps. Seeing uninformed comments made about our faith can provide us some comfort. We can conclude the problem with critics is one of ignorance. As Witnesses we knew that we had no issues with Kingdom Halls with windows. We knew we didn't "want our children to die" over the blood issue. Yet, we heard such comments from those on the outside. Yet, such comfort only goes so far -- because some of the issues critics speak of will remain. I would also say, I learned much more about my faith after leaving and talking with fellow Ex-JWs. Don't assume, posting on an Ex-Mormon forum would not increase your knowledge. Simply asking someone to share why they left the faith can be enlightening, even if one may not agree with all the reasons.
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Wozwozza
brought into LDS as a kid 1957 baptised in 1961 baptised a JW in 1983 just a sucker for bullshit American religions I guess
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TD
As far as the translation process, he never claimed to translate using his own knowledge of language, but relied on the power of God, as Joseph's calling was that of a seer.
And that was exactly the point, Cold Steel.
Inclusion of 17th century Jamesian English artifacts of Greek origin into a 19th century English translation of what was allegedly, 'Reformed Egyptian' would be a very human mistake.
A man attempting to give a 'biblical' flavor to a work of fiction might inadvertently do this by borrowing expressions directly from the AV with little or no thought or consideration to how they got into the AV in the first place, but why would God do this himself with actual Scripture? To test us?
Why would there be any Jamesian English expressions in the BOM at all? --Especially expressions that originated from 16th and 17th century efforts at Greek translation?
Maybe you could comment on this when you have time and posts available.
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wallsofjericho
NEVER!!!!!
I knew mormons that studied with witnesses.... trust me, JW's are the WAAAAY less crazy option of the two
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Twitch
If you haven't joined the LDS or considered it, as an Ex-JW, what is your general view of the LDS faith?
Never considered it; they seemed to have their own sunday flavour of divine right nutjob beliefs and it wasn't anything I wanted a part of
I have been in the local "hall" and spoke with the "elders" on business a few times. No breaks and full pop on rates. Creepy dudes.
It was interesting to walk through their church and observe some of the peoples. Different but all to familiar in a lot of ways.
No thanks.
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sd-7
Maybe 12 years ago, I had feelings for a Mormon woman and decided to look into her religion. I read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants pretty quickly. I tried my best to believe it but there was just no way to fake it, really. I was planning to join up with them but my mom put a stop to it, and I pretty much reprogrammed myself with JW stuff.
Honestly, it seemed contrived to me. The only way I could believe it was if I wanted to believe it. The moral code appealed to me, the fact that they seemed to encourage marriage and family and even seemed to have a special sort of interest in young adults--heck, I even studied with two female missionaries at the time. Of course, I think they were just 'love-bombing' me at the time, so it probably seemed cooler than it actually was.
Still, learning about their faith gave me a sort of respect for them. Not knowing the darker side of it all probably helps, too. But they seem less controlling than JWs to me, even though of course they fit much of the same criteria for a group that uses destructive social influence on its members.
On the plus side, it was learning about them that made me start to become more keenly aware of what was wrong with the JWs--mainly their inability to be honest when talking about other groups.
--sd-7
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Cold Steel
Rawe: I started this this topic as a break point in your thread about a religion based on assumptions. Cofty had suggested you have been using the site to proselytize for your LDS faith. I don't know if you would agree with that or not. In any regards you said you joined "because I’m interested in the Jehovah’s Witness religion."
Thank you for your clarification, Randy. As a matter of fact, I joined this site because my family got dropped like hot potatoes after a branch of our family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. My grandmother was terrorized by JW literature that spoke of people ceasing to exist at death. The thought of her going into the ground and fading to nothingness was repugnant to her (as it would me). Once I'm dead, however, if I do become non-existent, I don't want to be resurrected.
Part of the LDS faith that appeals to me is that it is predicated on the principle that God is of such a nature that he would never put someone into the horrible situations that exist on the earth -- situations in which the rate of failure were remarkably high -- without first gaining the consent of the person being born into mortality. Because of our premortality, we had the choice of being born and consented to it having a fairly good idea of what we were getting in to. And succeed or fail, it was our decision. All part of free will. We had much to lose, but we also stood a lot to gain.
I realize that organized religion is not for everyone, nor will any revealed religion be fully understood by outsiders. The same was true of early Christianity. It was charged with being a cult, Jesus and his followers had their characters reviled, their doctrines twisted and both were severely persecuted. But the positive comparisons are even more impressive. I don't trust religions run by men who aren't called and ordained by God. The Jehovah's Witnesses leaders were never called of God. None was ordained. No church was formed, and there weren't any biblical offices such as bishops, priests, deacons, teachers, apostles and others. If no church, then no officers; if no officers, no authority; if no authority, then no revelation; and if no revelation, then no church. Thus, while we have general authorities very much like the JW Governing Board, the difference isn't in the suits, the ages of the men, the types of offices they work in, but there is a difference in what they say and do, and the authority by which they do it.
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friendaroonie
I really hate that this post is still up top when I clicked on active topics just now. What bugs me is how random it is. Hey did you ever want to take up gladiator reinactments? Did you ever want to take a popcicle stick, break it in two and shove the splintery end up your anus? Did you ever want to take the top to a plastic jug of milk, fill it with a teaspoon of salt water, take it over to the sink and dump it out and then put it back on the jug of milk without washing the small residue of salt that remains on it? Did you ever want to move to johnson city, Tennessee and join the Lyons club business association? I don't know, im not really coming up with anything to compare it with that is witty, funny . And just as random. But the answer to all of these questions, but to the mormon question infinitely more intensely and forcefully is screaming, Why in the hell would I want to even think for one second about becoming a mormon???