What is the OBJECT of Faith For a Christian? (precisely)

by Perry 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PelicanBeach
    PelicanBeach

    Designs,

    Jesus lowered the bar for unbelievers. He did not say that at his coming unbelievers who are adulterers or murderers etc, will not have life. No, the bar was lowered to common kindness. If an unbeliever has practiced a kindness, a human decency, then they have entrance into the kingdom. That small kindness stems from a good heart and it is good hearts that Christ is interested in.

    The sheep and goats is a lesson nothing more. It does not condemn anyone only holds out hope for all but those who may not have enough compassion to even hold out a cup of water to a thirsting soul then they need to dig deep in their hearts and change that behavior before their heart becomes totally corrupted.

    (I'm not sure about the posting limit but I may be reaching it soon. Just so you know.)

    Pelican

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bobcat says-

    (1 Peter 1:8, 9 NWT) . . .Though YOU are not looking upon him at present, yet YOU exercise faith in him and are greatly rejoicing with an unspeakable and glorified joy, 9 as YOU receive the end of YOUR faith, the salvation of YOUR souls. (Other translations here.)

    That's an interesting scripture, since it demonstrates the concept that faith is no longer needed AFTER the action which it promised (i.e. going to Heaven, 'the salvation of your soul') actually occurred (just like you don't need a receipt showing the store's promise to deliver an item AFTER it's been delivered. Faith is thus like a legal document known as a 'bill of lading' commonly used in commercial transactions:

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/bill+of+lading

    The bill of lading is then sent to the buyer by the shipper upon payment for the goods, and is thus proof that the recipient is entitled to the goods when received. Thus, if there is no bill of lading, there is no delivery.

    However, the problem is that there have always been those who try to insert themselves into the legal document as mediators (eg the JW's GB with their elder system), and the 'loners' (eg the gnostic Xians) eventually were suppressed by being declared 'false teachers' and 'heretics' by what became the normative orthodoxy of Christianity and condemned by those who established systems of power and control (the orthodoxy even wrote scriptures that were later canonized into the NT in order to justify their existence and power grab). The idea of "pure Xian worship" is a myth created by the orthodoxy, since there never was only one form of worship, but a spectrum of beliefs and practices within Xianity.

    The exquisite irony is that modern Xians who are trying to re-establish a direct personal relationship with Jesus free of other human mediators are reading and quoting the same scriptures that were used against their ancient kin (the gnostics) who were exterminated, and they completely miss the reference that are condemning those who had the same concerns they do.

    I'd highly recommend Elaine Pagel's "The Gnostic Gospels", if you really don't know anything about the doctrinal positions of ancient groups of Xians like the gnostics (very similar beliefs to those on JWN who claim to have a direct experience of knowing truths, and don't want mediators getting in the way).

    Designs said-

    Religions bsed on Human Sacrifice: Aztecs, Mayans, Christians...

    Might be easier to make a list of religions that have NOT practiced human sacrifice in their past: Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism....

    Oh, wait: I guess not.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Just noting the irony of Perry protesting abortions, since those fetuses are possibly going to die anyway and go to Hell as unredeemed sinners if they eg grow up to become atheists.

    So it seems to me under Xian theology, the mother is actually doing the unborn a favor by aborting it, since they're guaranteeing the eternal salvation of the unborn's soul in Heaven, and condemning themselves to an eternity in Hell if they don't accept salvation.

    So actually abortion is a very LOVING ACT for the unborn, in essence sparing it's eternal soul with the mother potentially sacrificing her own soul for the child's.

    What a perverted sense of justice and logic Xianity breeds...

    Adam

  • Faithful Witness
    Faithful Witness

    I do not feed abortion debate threads, but that is an interesting perspective, Adam.

    Is it better to have lived and lost, or to have never lived at all?

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Adamah:

    Very interesting post above.

    If I understood you correctly: "A bill of lading" would be the business equivalent of "faith" according to this definition - (Hebrews 11:1 NWT) . . .Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld

    Take Care

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bobcat said-

    If I understood you correctly: "A bill of lading" would be the business equivalent of "faith" according to this definition - (Hebrews 11:1 NWT) . . .Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld

    Yup, the Greek word used in Hebrews 11 is 'hupostasis', which is a legal term used in ancient times which explains why some translations render the phrase as "faith is the title deed", i.e. it conveys a sense of something tangible that can be shown to others to prove one's right to claim future possession (eg heavenly hope). A more-current example is the promissory note, or as I said above, a 'bill of lading'.

    From this recent thread discussing faith:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/260964/1/Question-regarding-Faith-adamah#.UqnkzY1mmvG

    Hebrews 11:1 is arguably the least-understood scripture in the Bible, and the most important TO understand, since it defines FAITH.

    Understanding Paul's original intent is complicated by the handling of various translations of the Greek word, 'hypostasis', a legal term in common use at the time, so if you miss it's subtle implied meanings, you're going to miss the boat of the intended meaning.

    Here's a compeling analysis and example of hupostasis as "title deed" (which indicates CURRENT possession, unlike a 'bill of lading' which indicates FUTURE possession):

    From:

    http://hopefaithprayer.com/faith/faith-is-hebrews-111-hupostasis/

    Title-deed

    Kenneth Wuest has the following to say about hupostasis in Hebrews 11:1 in his Wuest Word Studies

    The Title-Deed to Answered Prayer – “FAITH is the substance of things hoped for” ( Heb. 11:1 ). The Greek word translated “substance” had a technical meaning in the business world of the first century. It referred to one’s property or effects. It was used in such expressions as “Out of this estate I declare that my husband owes me,” or, “more land than I actually possess,” the italicized words being the translation of the word. It was also used to refer to “the whole body of documents bearing on the ownership of a person’s property, deposited in the archives, and forming the evidence of ownership.” Moulton and Milligan in their “Vocabulary of the Greek Testament” say of these uses, “These varied uses are at first sight somewhat perplexing, but in all the cases there is the same central idea of something that underlies visible conditions and guarantees a future possession.” Thus, they translate “Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.”

    To substantiate this usage, there is in “Living Yesterdays,” a delightful brochure by H. R. Minn, the story of a woman named Dionysia. She is described as “a woman of set jaw and grim determination.” It seems that she had lost a case in a local court over a piece of land to which she laid claim. Not satisfied with the decision of a lower court, she determined to take her case to a higher court in Alexandria. She sent her slave to that city, with the legal documents safely encased in a stone box. On the way, the slave lost his life in a fire, which destroyed the inn where he had put up for the night. For 2,000 years, the sands of the desert covered the ruins of the inn, the charred bones of the slave, and the stone box.

    Archaeologists have recently uncovered these remains. In the box, they found the legal documents. They read the note, which this woman had sent to the judge in Alexandria, “In order that my lord the judge may know that my appeal is just, I attach my hupostasis.” That which was attached to this note, she designated by the Greek word translated “substance” in Heb. 11:1 . The attached document was translated and found to be the title-deed to the piece of land, which she claimed as her own possession, the evidence of her ownership.

    What a flood of light is thrown upon this teaching regarding faith. The act of exercising true faith as one prays, or as one leans on the resources of God, is itself the title-deed or evidence of the sure answer to our prayer or the unfailing source of the divine supply. It is God’s guarantee in advance that we already possess the things asked for. They may still be in His hands, awaiting the proper time for their delivery, but they are ours. If the answers to our prayers are not forthcoming at once, let us rest content with the title-deed, which God has given us, namely, a Holy Spirit energized act of faith. We may be absolutely certain that our God will honor this title-deed at the right moment.

    When you own property, you are given a ‘title-deed’ to prove your ownership . . . it is yours, and no-one can take it from you. Your ‘faith,’ is a title-deed that God holds on your behalf, His promised land. No-one can take this from you . . . there is no persuasion or pressure that can change your ‘stance.’. . . because of its ‘substance’ . . . He stands under you. You can own something that you do not see, and it is no less yours.

    BTW, Paul is making claims beyond what the situation actually is, since I'd say for honest and full disclosure, Hebrews 11:1 should have been written as saying, "faith is the UNASSURED (or UNSECURED) expection of things hoped for...." Paul's definition of faith really boils down to one's beliefs being secured ONLY by one's wishes and hopes: it truly is a circular definition that actually defines "blind faith", since that which cannot be seen is NO evidence at all.

    So faith is actually an UNSECURED PROMISE (unlike when you rent, and the landlord demands a SECURITY DEPOSIT from the renter to cover the possibility that the tenant skips town and leaves damages: that's deposit is the SECURITY which backs the promise to perform one's obligation in a performance contract).

    There is no 'security deposit' offered if you live a virtuous God-centered life and die, only to become worm food; it's actually an unsecured promise, since you cannot sue Jesus for 'failure to perform and deliver' his obligations under the contract.

    Adam

  • adamah
    adamah

    Faithful witness said-

    I do not feed abortion debate threads, but that is an interesting perspective, Adam.

    Is it better to have lived and lost, or to have never lived at all?

    Well, that's the problem of living one's life as if this life is only the warm-up, the testing grounds, needed to gain admission to an ever-better place upstairs for an eternity.

    Xians treat this Earthly existence as the opening act, needed to be tolerated as if patiently waiting for the headlining act to take the stage. Jokes on them when the headliner doesn't appear, but they were scammed by concert promoters (religions) who made big promises but cannot deliver.

    But we see that kind of perverted logic play out when eg a severely depressed woman killed her 3 yr old son and then herself, using the same rationality I offered above which makes perfect sense from a Xian theological standpoint. It applies not only to children, but to unborn, too.

    Bringing it up is a fast way to silence Xians protesting abortions, as if their God Jehovah has any moral right to claim concern for protecting the rights of the unborn when the Bible contains stuff like this:

    2 KINGS 15:16 Menahem attacked the city of Tiphsah. He destroyed the town and "ripped open all of the pregnant women."

    HOSEA 13:16 Because Israel had rebelled, a wind from the Lord would blow in. They "will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, and their pregnant women ripped open."

    God shows NO regard for human life, regardless of the status of the individual (born or unborn are all the same).

    Adam

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Adamah:

    Thanks very much for the reply. I heading to work now, but looking forward to going over your reply when I get back.

    Take Care

  • designs
    designs

    "Unless eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in yourself" John 6:53

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    Bloooood! Same thing to vampires. LOL

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