The " HIGHER EDUCATION" thread!!!

by DATA-DOG 63 Replies latest jw friends

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  DATA-DOG

  Alright. Let's have the ultimate discussion on "higher education." Let's talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly. Do you have a degree? Why do you think it is necessary? If you don't have a degree, why not? What have you been taught about higher education? How old are you? Would you go to school if you could afford it? Are you successful despite not having a degree? Can it be a scam??

  I'll go first:

  Name: DATA-DOG

  Age: 35+

  Educational Level: High School Graduate

  College: None

  Employment: Full Time

  Religious affilliation: JW

  Being raised as a JW, College was not an option. I was told it was not needed. Just get a job, be honest, work hard and live a simple life. The END would be here soon! There is absolutely nothing wrong with a simple life, IMO. I see many people that seem to live to work, instead of working to live. What does that mean? Honestly, I don't know. It's just something that JWs say all the time. I guess it means that you shouldn't let working for money crowd out what is really important, like family and life itself.

  Well, that's nice and all, but people need food to live. People need to grow in self-knowledge. That only happens through the gaining of knowledge, as all knowledge is ultimately self-knowledge. At least that's how Bruce Lee felt, and I agree. So this "living to work" vs. "working to live" conflict seems to be at the heart of the JW issue of education. Is it really valid? Or is it a made up scare tactic to play on people's insecurities or laziness?

  What's the poverty level JW , who is forced to work hard every single day till death, really doing? Is that "working to live?!?!" What's so great about that? Is that life? What's the difference between being poor, giving all you time to "the ministry" and meetings and not being with your family, or having a well paying job and not being home? They both sound terrible to me. It seems that balance is needed.

  I make a decent living. Besides some un-forseen medical expenses, I do alright. I don't have too much debt. I can and do, live a pretty simple life. In fact, I would be pretty happy were it not for the constant bitching of the WTBTS. I have a home, a great Wife, a great kid, some cats. I love simple things like reading a book, sitting and listening to the birds, watching the cats play. Living the "Hobbit" life is really what I want. I can work some over-time, but I don't choose to. I like to be home with my family. To me, money is just a means to an end, not the end in itself. So I am not hating life because I did not go to College. It's just that I should have the right to go, if I want to.

  I think that is where the line should be drawn. The WTBTS leaders have no scriptural authority to say one thing about "Higher Education" because the scriptures are absolutely silent on the matter. So by their own "bible-based" standards, the GB have judged themselves to be hypocrites. They may feel concern for others and say, " Hey, be careful at College. Some kids act really dumb. Don't binge drink, don't take drugs,ect." I am parent, I know what worry feels like. I would warn and protect my child to the best of my ability. So, I get the sentiment. I really do.

  They have taken it too far. By saying that GOD is sad if you go to College, they have went way beyond what is written. They even go so far as to label any parent who allows their child to have higher education as "spiritually immature." The hypocrisy is astounding. One Elder even told me, " There is nothing wrong with "college" exactly...mmmm,errr, it's just that..If you send your kid to College then you can't have any privileges, or be used by the Organzation." WTH?!?! It sure sounds like something is wrong!

  Okay, rant over. Here are my concerns about College.

  1) $$$ THE MONEY - I don't have a lot. I cannot afford to gamble with what I have.

  2) People who have been to college tell me to be wary of the system. They say that you can be ripped off, and be forced to pay for University required classes that are not really related to your chosen field. For me that means time and money wasted. Why should I pay for something I don't need?

  3) Getting work. I have a job. I'm neither rich, nor poor. Why ruin that to go into debt and them have to work a Starbucks anyway?? I know a lot of Biologists and Teachers and even some Ballerinas who make a mean Latte'. Now they have tons of student debt. So there are real concerns for individuals and their children. Also, I hear about people getting great jobs without a degree. Are they made up stories?

  So, even though the WTBTS should mind their own business, are they all wrong about the concerns of College? What do you think? What experiences have you had? What are your fears? What advice can you give? We can't all go to College, can we??

  In an ideal world we would all have awesome and rewarding jobs and not have to worry about money or food. Sadly, that is not the case. Finally, this is what really puzzles me. You would think that the WTBTS would encourage furthering your education so as not to be a burden on society. How can you have any surplus to help others if you are broke, and must rely on others? It seems that each person who can barely make ends meet is a part of the problem, not the solution. How many hungy JWs are out there? How many JWs could pay it forward if given the chance? I think many would gladly help their fellow man. The problem seems to be that they are trapped within the construct of WTBTS legalism. You are free to help, but not too much. It's like being free to go anywhere you want in the Prison yard. After all, if we solved a real problem, what would next months magazines be about?? Sorry for the long post..gotta go, BYE!!!

  DD
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  Captain Blithering

  Wow! You covered it dude!
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  straightshooter

  I ended my college education after 2 years, because I accepted the WTS beliefs. If I finished my college education, I would have been financially better off. I would have had a good retirement.

  Friends of mine who went back to the educational system found that standards often times change. In other words, there goal was to be a school teacher. Because they worked full time and took a couple of courses, it was taking forever to finish college. Also classes they took a few years back suddenly became invalid and they would have to take something different to complete that section of the degree requirements.
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  quellycatface

  Hi data dog. Imo, education gives us options.I read English at university and had a great time.

  Always had good jobs in my chosen field.

  Left off having a child until I had a home and some savings so I could have time to be full time mom.

  Went back to work when my son was 4years old.

  Working now as an editor for an educational magazine.I love my job.
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  thedog1

  DD, very well balanced comments about university, acknlowledging the pitfalls, but allowing individuals to make their own choice. Unfortunately, as you say, people will be stigmatized if they go or send their children to university. In our hall, one bro wantedto create some waves as the son of an elder is doing a hotel management course, not really uni but a two year course. Fortunately, it was generally ignored, but overall I think this article in the wt was very unbalanced. It gives the what I call the fanatical wing something to beat others with.
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  PelicanBeach

  Data-Dog,

  Choice is important and the Watchtower's refusal to openly allow choice (though quite a few attend community colleges anyway) is wrong. But I agree that not everyone suffers from a lack of university education. Not falling for the social pressures to have the biggest house and the latest car is a good thing. Many people outside the JWs live within their means and are happy doing so.

  No immense bills, no immense car payment, makes for a life with much less anxiety. Enough time to read to the kids and take them to parks, weekend vacations, without the pressure to produce, produce, produce at every turn is soooooooo good. At 5:00 life takes over every evening with no interruptions.

  Getting the kids addicted to have a savings account is important. Once they get the fever to add more than they subtract from their savings then they are on their way to living a life not subject to the pitches on tv or the internet. They become independent of commercial interests. Too many people have strings tied to them and buy whatever is pitched. Sad to see.

  Having said that, many cannot make ends meet without furthering their education and others want to attend university to expand their knowledge. The Watchtower has no right to criticize or ban, we are free!
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  Simon

  I think the experience of going to university and the start that it gives your career are the 'value' (assuming it's a real degree and not the lame ones)

  Getting one later in life is more about personal satisfaction - normally experience counts more than academic qualifications at that point.

  We both got degrees before we emigrated from the UK to Canada because it also helped to earn extra points for immigration. Other than that I don't think there is a lot of value to them but then I'm in IT where education is woefully behind the real world. Experience is everything and everything is out-of-date by the time someone has written a book about it, let alone developed a curriculum around it.
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  Deus.ex.Machina

  Ultimately I think it comes down to personal choice and circumstance. If your career interests require addiitonal training beyond high school, then I completely understand why a person would choose to pursue higher education. I don't see any logical way that undermines one's love of Jehovah or morality. I attended a university in a major city where I knew no one. I did not become addicted to drugs, sex, or alcohol. I have no out-of-wedlock children. I was never arrested. I did not smoke. While I did not continue to dress like a 60-year-old women, I was far from a scandal. I did not beat up little old ladies to steal their Social Security checks. According to JW logic, this is damn near impossible even for the spiritually strong, but I managed as an unbaptized born-in. I'm sneaky that way I supposed.

  Love is about encouraging people to get the tools that will enhance their happiness. The anti-education stance really emphasizes the conditional nature of JW love. One of the reasons that I chose not to get baptized is that Jehovah's neediness was a black hole, stripping every bit of individualism from a person until there was nothing left. It's too overbearing and all consuming and there is so little in return.

  Plus you spend a lot of time at work and it really should be something that you enjoy and not some daily drudgery.
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  Simon

  And I would agree too that education is an industry like any other and they often want to push you to buy more regardless of whether it is really of any value. As more and more people go through the university system the bar just gets raised so simply having a degree ends up counting for very little - you can still get to say "would you like fries with that".

  I remember reading a comparison between someone becoming a doctor, earning more money but getting it later in life and racking up a lot of debt to get there and someone else being a builder, earning immediately. Over the lifetime the earnings were not too dissimilar.

  The big BUT though is not everyone is cut out to chose. People should focus on doing what they are good at and what they enjoy doing and with the right life/work balance that is surely the best way to be happy.
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  leaving_quietly

  Name: leaving_quietly

  Age: 40+

  Educational Level: High School Graduate

  College: None

  Employment: Full Time

  Religious affiliation: JW (raised from toddler on)

  The pre-1988 era was "no college, no college, no college". Then, in 1988 or thereabouts, the Society relaxed its view. Too late for me. No money saved for college. Too bad, so sad. Then, in recent years, it's back to strongly denouncing college.

  I happen to have a natural skill that pays well, so I've been able to use that for my employment for many years. I wish I had more education so I could diversify my skillset as the life of my skills is quickly dwindling. I'll be fortunate if I can do it another ten years.

  One of the things that angered me as an elder was when we got a letter that basically threatened any elder with removal who either themselves or allowed a family member to go to college. That was early on when I started waking up to TTATT.

  I do agree with most of the things WTBS says about college, but for very different reasons. I don't think it's all black and white, like WTBS likes us to believe. However, there is definitely some good advice given. College is expensive, and at least here in the U.S., you cannot default on a student loan. You can defer it for awhile, but interest compounds. If the issue that WTBS had was about the atmosphere in college, especially in a dormatory setting, I could see it as that could get out of hand for a believer. However, that's not WTBS' focus. Their focus is on the educational element itself. They do not believe bettering oneself in this system of things is proper, and they would have the rank and file be poor but in the ministry. I don't have an issue with that notion per say. They have a right to their opinion. What I have an issue with is their approach. In essence, they have become the master of MY faith as opposed to fellow workers. Whether I go to college or not is between me and my God.