The Foolish 'Two Witness" Concept

by metatron 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • metatron
    metatron

    It seems, if I am interpreting the documents correctly, that many in the Organization might reject good forensic evidence of a crime just because there aren't two or more (human) witnesses to back it up.

    A quick look at the Watchtower Concordance reveals that all sorts of things can act as a 'witness' - such as a pile of rocks.

    In John, Jesus claimed that 'his works' acted as a witness.

    Actually, forensic evidence can offer more accurate 'testimony' than humans and is often superior. In any case, this 'two witness' stuff is rubbish, even from a Biblical point of view. Things can be a witness.

    metatron

  • sir82
    sir82

    If the WTS ever decides to become mainstream, that line of reasoning is undoubtedly what they will use to back away from the bronze-age standard of "two eyewitnesses".

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Metatron:

    A very interesting look "outside the box." Thank you for this observation.

    Take Care

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Funny how the two witness rule doesnt get used with......

    smoking

    being drunk

    anonymous allegations

    adultery

    fornication

    'apostacy'

    Etc etc...

  • Syme
    Syme

    Want to know how rigid is the WTS as regards to the "2 Witness" rule?

    Check out 2 points from MTS:

    1. In the Judicial Committees lesson, the instructor repeated that only with confession or with 2 witnesses is a JC formed. When asked by a student "What about photos taken? What about tapes? What about videos?" his response was "Again: 2 witnesses. That is the rule". You understand? Even if you have the whole matter on tape, it does not stand for JC forming. Only 2 witnesses (you can always extract a confession if you have a tape in hand, though, unless the sinner is clever enough to STILL deny it ).

    You see why this becomes outrageous when it comes to a pedophile against whom there's only 1 witness (the kid).

    2. In another lesson about the Mosaic law, we were told of the case (in Numbers) when a man suspected his wife of adultery but had no evidence, and she denied it. They would go to the High Priest, and he would do a (rather occult, actually) test, in which Jehovah himself -as a super witness- would provide answer, if she was unfaithful or not. If she proved to be unfaithful indeed, her punishment would not be death (as normally in adultery), but just some sterilization thing. Why that exception? Because there weren't 2 witnesses, even if Jehovah himself was the 1 witness.

    So yeah, this seems to be a pretty solid rule of the WTS.

  • jam
    jam

    It would have been nice to apply the two witness concept when

    Moses was talking to the burning bush. Ok Moses are you sure

    the bush was burning and God spoke to you???

  • BackseatDevil
    BackseatDevil

    On the bases of two or three witnesses.

    Yes, I am well aware that some religions interpret "witness" to include inanimate objects in nature... that are CREATED BY GOD. As creations of god they can bare witness on his behalf.

    I guess.

    Jesus in Matthew 18:16 was actually reiterating what Moses said in Deuteronomy 17:6 - and this had to do with someone wronging someone else. If you ever witnessed two Jewish people in a heated argument over a wrong it can get rather... lively. In this case, the rule is perfectly understandable.

    However, because Jews do not view "god" in the narrative format that Christians do, there is a spirituality that is assigned to the elements. The rocks gave forth water, honey, mana came from heaven, god spoke through a bush, the ground opened up to swallow the calf worshipers, Hanna received water from the ground, Aaron's rod grew flowers, rocks were used for the urim and the thummim. The earth as they knew it WAS LIVING. It had LIFE.

    So in that mind, yes, elements of the earth can bare witness. That was NOT what Jesus was saying and it certainly was not what Paul was instructing in 2 Corinthians 13:1 as the church in Corinth were having serious problems... and Paul had to tell them " BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES" as there was much dispute about the authority of Jesus and such. Remember, not everyone can read, so once a letter was read to the church or a visit happened, people can go off to neighboring villiages and say whatever... arguing a point they cannot verify because they do not have the source material at hand.

    Anyway, my opinion is that some of these people could have been using the old Jewish thinking about evoking the "witness" of inanimate objects... but regardless Paul said no... and he uses the words "at the mouth" (sometimes translated as "testimony". The witness had to be able to speak. So ask a Jewish person about the old law regarding the witness of a pile of rocks, but for the new law established by Jesus (who also uses "by the mouth"), the answer is no... inanimate objects should not be "witnesses".

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Here's an interesting thread that discusses the idea that a rape kit could be a second 'witness'.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/95411/1/Rape-two-witnesses-DNA-and-rape-kit#.UrPQKE2A2AU

    However because the Watchtower tends to discourage reporting sexual crimes to the proper authorities, the percentage of JW women who would get a rape kit when attacked by a fellow Watchtower-believer is probably lower than average.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Looking at the scriptures that refer to a need for two or more witnesses:

    Deuteronomy 19:16-21

    “16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, 17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the Lord before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, 19then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. 20The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”

    It must be remembered that in ancient Israel there were no police or courts. The judges acted in these capacities, hence the requirement for two or more witnesses. This situation does not exist today in the modern Christian congregation. The Bible states that God has placed the secular authorities as his "ministers" to act in matters of criminal matters (Romans 13).

    In the case of one person’s word against another, did the judges in ancient Israel consider that their hands were tied and they could do nothing? No! If there weren’t enough witnesses then the king became the judge and had to decide the final outcome.

    Deuteronomy 25:1 – “When men have a dispute, they are to take it to court and the judges will decide the case, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty.”

    Notice here that it was the judges, not the priests, who made the “thorough investigation” (19:18). The priests served in a spiritual capacity, not a legal capacity. At this point the priests became observers only and left the investigation to the Judges. In the case of one person’s word against another, the matter moved from being a spiritual, priestly matter, to a criminal, legal matter to be investigated by the judiciary arm of the nation, not the priestly.

    The ‘Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament’ brings this out:

    “But as it was not always possible to bring forward two or three witnesses, and the statement of one witness could not well be disregarded, in Deuteronomy 19:16-18, Moses refers accusations of this kind to the higher tribunal at the sanctuary for investigation and decision, and appoints the same punishment for a false witness, which would have fallen upon the person accused, if he had been convicted of the crime with which he was charged. סרה בּו לענות, "to testify against his departure”.”

    As a part of the judges investigation, non-human ‘witness’ evidence could be taken into account.

    Exodus 22:13 (ASJ, KJV, DBT, ERV) makes it clear that non-human evidence can count as a “witness”.

    At Numbers 5, a woman's reaction to the bitter waters was used as “witness” evidence against her unfaithfulness to her husband.

    Jesus also said that his miracles were a “witness” to the truth of his claims (John 5:36).

    This principle was used by Solomon in his well known "baby-splitting" decision. It was a case in which two women both testified that the same child was theirs. Two witnesses did not exist - it was a case of one woman's word against another, analogous to a modern day situation where it's a case of one person's allegation (child or horrified mother) against the word of a lying paedophile. But Solomon used the women's actions as a "witness" to arbitrate the tie and establish a second "witness" to agree with the verbal testimony of one against the other.

    This scriptural account shows that the elders must use their common sense and look at the overall words, actions and behaviour of the parties in assessing prima-facie guilt, rather than simply ceasing all further enquiry/investigation immediately the allegation is denied.

    In modern day terms, who are the equivalent of the priests and the equivalent of the judges referred to in Deuteronomy 19? The elders are regarded by the Society as today fulfilling a sort of priestly function in the congregation. But the judges of ancient Israel have been replaced by the secular authorities (Romans 13). These authorities are said by Paul to act as God’s minister and executioner to punish the evildoer. As paedophilia and all child abuse is not only a grave moral sin but a serious criminal matter, accusations of child abuse without two or more witnesses moves it into the realm of necessarily engaging the superior authorities (legal system supported by health professionals) to condemn or acquit the accused. Romans 13 is clear that the superior authorities stand placed by Jehovah to deal with criminal evil, not the elders.

    This means that when an accusation of a serious crime such as child abuse (or for any other crime such as theft, physical assault, or murder) is made but there are not two eye-witnesses, the elders must notify the superior authorities as a matter of course, since it is God’s arrangement that these authorities deal with evildoers and punish them. If the superior authorities declare guilt, the elders then have their “second witness” and can oust the wicked man from the congregation’s midst. By refusing to do this in all cases, the Watchtower Society stands guilty of taking a stand against God's (secular) arrangement to punish and prevent wickedness.

    The elders are not lawyers, psychologists, doctors, or scientists, and it is not appropriate to put them in a position to make “judicial” determinations about crimes under Caesar’s law. Neither is it appropriate or fair for the elders to tell a child that they cannot do anything about the child’s claim because no one else saw it happen. If the child’s parent/s mistakenly decide not to go to the secular authorities, is the child expected to go to the police alone against their own parent’s decision? That is entirely unreasonable and not in accord with the pattern left by Christ, who put the interests and needs of young children ahead of adults preferences (Matthew 19:14).

    Recall that the organisation has always stated that “we must obey God’s law rather than men” (Acts 5:29), noting that God’s standards are higher than mans (Isaiah 55:9). Jehovah’s view of what is morally wrong and sinful is higher than the world’s standards. This means that the elders should be taking the moral and spiritual high ground with reporting accusations to the police, rather than just conforming to the lowest common legal requirement. In US States and countries where there are no mandatory reporting laws, the Watchtower Society should be instructing the elders to report the allegation anyway. It is all the more imperative that the elders report all child abuse accusations, whether legally required to or not, since most incidents of child abuse are never witnessed by another person and so it becomes crucial to have the judgment of the superior authorities verdict so it can count as a second “witness” in those cases where no other human witnesses exist.

    “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.” (Matthew 18:15,16 – New World Translation)

    While an argument can be made that Jesus statement that “at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established” is a blanket rule being given by Jesus for verifying the truth of any allegation in the congregation, the context is clear that Jesus is setting out a process for resolving disputes between adults, not children, by his use of the term “brothers.”

    This is also clear from the fact that the first step is for the brother sinned against to approach the accused alone. Obviously, Jesus would never intend for a child victim of sexual molestation to have to do such a thing. Jesus is saying that the one sinned against should approach the offending party to reason with them and reach a resolution, and for forgiveness to follow - obviously it would be entirely inappropriate to expect a child to do that.

    Thus we discern from the context and using our natural sense of what is morally right and wrong that Matthew 18:15,16 is not meant to be applied to accusations of child abuse.

    The Society also applies these verses inconsistently. When applying verse 15, the Society does not expect that a person who has been threatened with violence, or been raped or abused to initially confront the person on their own, so why does it insist that the requirement in verse 16 for two or three witnesses must apply to every situation, including child abuse?

    1 Timothy 5:19

    “Do not admit an accusation against an older man, except only on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Reprove before all onlookers persons who practice sin, that the rest also may have fear…. The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men [their sins] also become manifest later. In the same way also the fine works are publicly manifest and those that are otherwise cannot be kept hid.” (1 Timothy 5:19,24,25 – New World Translation)

    Paul’s injunction clearly confirms the scriptural rule. However, the underlying principle behind Paul’s requirement for two or three witnesses is the need for satisfactory “evidence” for an accusation to be deemed true. This is the underlying principle to the entire requirement for two or more witnesses, ie, for sufficient evidence to be established. It follows that if sufficient evidence can be established through other means, there is no need to dogmatically insist that two or more human eyewitnesses must exist for guilt to be established.

    It is reprehensible that in a letter to elders following the Conti verdict, the Watchtower Society quotes verses 24,25 above as if to insinuate that even if there is only one witness and the elders can do nothing at the time, eventually the paedophiles sins will “become manifest” after abusing more victims who then might come forward as additional witnesses. This tends to reduce child victims to being viewed as mere pieces of evidence that must accumulate over time before there is enough evidence for the elders to finally take action. So much for the Watchtower Society’s claim that “one victim of pedophilia is too many.”

    We can therefore summarise the scriptural support for the two-witness rule as applied to child abuse allegations follows:

    Deuteronomy 19

    Pro WTS argument: The ‘two witnesses’ rule is clearly contained here, and is ratified by Jesus and Paul later, so it is applicable to Christians.

    Anti WTS argument: The WTS quotes the verse to support their ‘two witnesses’ requirement but ignores the context. If it is one person’s word against another, the matter was escalated to the Israelite judges (not priests) who were to “make a thorough investigation”. Non-human evidence was counted as a “witness”. The equivalent of the Israelite judges today is the superior authorities, who stand placed as God’s minister and executioner to punish evildoers. Since two eyewitnesses to child molestation is rare, all allegations involving only one witness that is denied by the accused should be reported to the superior authorities by the elders (whether domestic law requires reporting all not) to give the accuser every opportunity for non-human and court evidence to come forth as a second witness.

    Matthew 18:15,16:

    Pro WTS argument: Jesus is affirming that Deut 19 applies to Christians and is making a blanket rule for dealing with all allegations in the congregation.

    Anti WTS argument: The rule is only given in relation to a process outlined by Jesus for adult “brothers” in the congregation to resolve disputes between themselves. Other aspects of Jesus’ advice as outlined clearly show it does not apply to crimes against children.

    1 Timothy 5:19

    Pro WTS argument: The apostle Paul is clearly saying accusations are unfounded without two or three witnesses.

    Anti WTS argument: Paul is only requiring two or three witnesses in order that ample evidence is established. As demonstrated earlier, the underlying principle of sufficient evidence is all that must be satisfied, not a strict requirement for literally two or three witnesses.

    On the balance, we can see that the scriptural basis for applying this rule to child abuse cases is flimsy. Although the rule is clearly evident in the New testament, when we take into context the higher principles taught by Jesus about legalistic and gnat-squeezing adherence to the letter of the law versus applying the higher principles of love and mercy, there can be no doubt that the Bible writers under inspiration never intended it to be applied in the legalistic and rigid manner shamefully adopted by the Watchtower Society.

    When we consider that with the fact that Bible condemns shoving aside the legal case of the fatherless boy and that the form of pure worship is how we treat widows and orphans in their tribulation, and we also note that Jesus set a clear principle that mercy and justice were more important than legalistic insistence on letter of the law, we must conclude that the Society’s treatment and application of the two-witness scriptural rule to child abuse allegations is a monstrous example of gulping down the camel while squeezing the gnat at its worst.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 "...for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive."

  • carla
    carla

    My jw (who often does not seem to get the jw memo's in my opinion) once told me that "yes, forensic evidence could be considered a witness". Naturally that caused me to ask how can there be forensic evidence if the jw or parents are not allowed to go to the police first and immediately but rather they should contact an elder first? Valuable time and evidence is lost. crickets or the ever famous- "leave it to jah"

    Which then leads to leaving pedophiles/molesters within the 'church' and no justice for the victim, again he responds with the same above answer.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit