"I shall surely multiply your seed . . ."

by leaving_quietly 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  leaving_quietly

  I've been thinking about the 144,000 and them alone being called to heaven. It does not make logical sense, given the promise given to Abraham, which was still thought to be in effect even in the first century, thus should still be in effect today. The promise was: "I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore." (Genesis 22:17).

  Now, I don't know about you, but I suspect I can get 144,000 grains of sand to fit in a paper cup. According to multiple sources online, there are actually millions of grains of sand in an 8 ounce cup. So, there is a strange bit of logic to saying that only 144,000 = the grains of sand that are on the seashore.

  The Insight book, volume 2, page 889 has this gem:

  Consequently, God’s promise, “I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore,” has a spiritual fulfillment and means that others, who “belong to Christ,” are added as part of Abraham’s seed. (Ge 22:17; Mr 9:41; 1Co 15:23) God did not disclose the number but left it as indeterminate to man as is the number of the stars and the grains of sand. Not until about 96 C.E., in the Revelation to the apostle John, did He reveal that spiritual Israel, those “sealed” with God’s spirit, which is a token of their heavenly inheritance, numbers 144,000 persons.

  WTBTS has never been particularly good at math.
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  Apognophos

  Wow, that's... weird. I would have just said that the WT interpreted the promise made to Abraham as referring to his descendants, the Jews, being blessed and becoming numerous. I had no idea that they connected that promise to the 144,000. I wonder if that's still "current light"....
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  leaving_quietly

  This is still current, as far as I'm aware. I'll have to research further when I get more time to spend on it, but I'm pretty sure this is still current thinking.
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  Crazyguy

  Oh yeah its still a curent teaching. The seed are the sons of god the Isreal of God the true anonted ones the 144K. The great crowd is just followers that must stick by the 144k in order to get into the kingdom of god. Your not supposed to be thinking about the number 144K and Abrahams seed being like the sand. Stop your not to use your brain, I will call your elders and they will come df you.
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  wearewatchingyouman

  C'mon man! These guys are just fricken' silly sometimes

  Good find friend. Good Find.
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  leaving_quietly

  >> I will call your elders and they will come df you.

  Please DO! End this mysery of mine! The mental anguish of having to pretend all the time is too much to bear at times.
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  Bobcat

  Leaving:

  Here are numerous links, some with sublinks to research on various aspects of this subject

  Great Crowd and New Covenant Sub Links

  Great Crowd and the New Covenant

  The Great Crowd "Which no man was able to number"

  Various sub links on the topic of being anointed (The post numbers have changed. Look for my posts on the page.)

  Great Crowd and Abrahamic Covenant and Zech 8:23 & Isa 45:14

  Great Crowd and Abrahamic Covenant - Here and here

  Hope this research provides some food for thought.

  Take Care
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  Crazyguy

  Good stuff Bobcat, every fader or quiter of this Cult should be educated to be able to blow up JW dogma just using a bible. If every one could and did when the opportunity arose we would have a lot less JW cultists in this world. Knowledge is power!!!!!!!!
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  Bobcat

  CrazyGuy:

  Thanks for the encouragement. A lot of this research came after reading questions raised here, questions that would either, never dare to be asked, or never thought to be asked, at a KH.

  Leaving:

  As CrazyGuy said, some of the material posted was for you, if you needed it, but also with lurkers in mind.

  **************

  Abrahamic Covenant

  • Old Covenant - A sub covenant of Abrahamic covenant. Produces only Jesus as a "seed of Abraham," all others condemned by the law itself.

  • New Covenant - A sub covenant of the Abrahamic covenant. Exists as a replacement for Old covenant. All faithful disciples of Jesus in this age (not just the 144,000) fall under this covenant. (A great crowd of which survive the GT.) It also picks up all those resurrected (including those condemed under Old covenant) during age to come. See here, here, and here.

  Thus, by the end of the millenium, all mankind will be sons of ("the seed of") Abraham via their relationship by faith in Jesus. If one were to take God at his word (Abraham's seed compared to the stars and sand in number) it may hint at how mankind will expand beyond earth. (All of them being "the seed of Abraham.") God's promise to Abraham may well extend into the very distant future and involve His purpose for the entire universe.

  Incidentally, the post millenial "test" does not decide who gets everlasting life. Jesus does away with the enemy "death" before he hands his kingdom back to the father. (Compare 1 Cor 15:24-26)

  WT tries to say that "like the stars/grains of sands" is equivalent to 'an unknown number, later revealed to be 144,000.' But see here.

  Take Care
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  leaving_quietly

  Bobcat, thank you. As always, you provide a wealth of information that I've come to appreciate.

  Of course, WT gets around almost everything the Bible says regarding who or who is not part of the "seed" with one sentence:

  "The Christian Greek Scriptures were written primarily for “the Israel of God,” those anointed as brothers of Christ and spiritual sons of God." - w08 1/15 p. 22 par. 11

  And then, my response to that is: Fine. YOU do the preaching BY YOURSELF since the command was not given to ME, since I'm not part of the anointed 144,000. Enjoy!

  And then, they would respond with: "To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me."
  And I would respond with: "And where is preaching in that list? I see feeding, giving a drink, clothing, visiting in prison, but not one word about preaching."

  And they would respond with: "In a sense, Jesus meant preaching."

  And I would respond with: "I give up. There's no reasoning with you people."