Bible Reading Rev 7--umm hello?

by DS211 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  DS211

  I got bored at the meeting and read the Bible reading and could NOT believe some of the false prophetic garbage being commented....anyways heres what i fiund interesting ;-)

  7 After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed; out of the tribe of Reu′ben 12,000; out of the tribe of Gad 12,000; 6 out of the tribe of Ash′er 12,000; out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li 12,000; out of the tribe of Ma·nas′seh 12,000; 7 out of the tribe of Sim′e·on 12,000; out of the tribe of Le′vi 12,000; out of the tribe of Is′sa·char 12,000; 8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u·lun 12,000; out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000; out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed. 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God,12

  1. Earth isnt harmed till the sealing of thise marked...k

  2. After that John sees a great crowd before the throne in WHITE ROBES

  3. Angels , elders, etc (not 144,000) are also before the throne, GOD is seated on the throne and the Lamb next to it. K

  NOW in Rev 9 there is a reference thats important:

  They were told not to harm the vegetation of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the locusts, not to kill them, but to torment them five months, and their torment was like torment by a scorpion when it strikes a person. 6 In those days people will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will long to die, but death will flee from them.

  catch it? Only the people who do NOT have Gods seal (144,000) were harmed by the locusts. If the 144,000 are in heaven this could not happen. And if the great crowd is NOT sealed and is on earth then they would also fall victim to this.

  Now during the meeting someone made the comment that the 12 tribes are not literal israel so it must be those anointed ones who are of "spiritual" israel Because they dont include Daniel and a few others...but was t tgat because they were guilty of wrongdoing?

  for more info check out

  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/great-crowd-other-sheep.php

  and

  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/144000.php

  enjoy! And wake up!
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  DS211

  :-)
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  Separation of Powers

  Great points! I use to sit and just read the book of Revelation...fascinating. Over the years, though, I have come to learn that it is simply a book of alegory and symbolism referent to Roman rulership and their intolerance of Christianity. NOT even written by the apostle John, but rather some othe John over a century later. The arguments against even putting it in as part of the biblical canon are many. It was used by the early Church to compel worship and alms. Sorry....but that's just part of the history. So, now when I read it....I don't try to make any sense of it or apply it to modern day.

  SOP
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  leaving_quietly

  I am SO glad you brought this up. I caught this at the meeting last night and made a note to myself to research this. Yes, this blows the whole 144,000 as a literal number out of the water.

  Update: Minor note here. At this point, the 144,000 is not said to be in heaven. John simply heard the number of them, and the instructions to the angels to hold back the four winds until they were sealed. However, if the 24 elders are the 144,000, as WT claims, then, yes, they would be in heaven. Of course, the 24 elders cannot be the 144,000 because in Rev 14, the 144,000 are singing the new song before the angels and the elders, thus the elders are stated as a separate group. The issue here is that in Rev 9, the instructions to the locusts is to harm only those who do not have the seal of God in their forehead. This would INCLUDE the great crowd. Why would God order the angels to harm them? That's the question.
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  leaving_quietly

  w69 12/1 p.721 par. 32:

  These symbolic locusts were really the ones that were sealed with the “seal of God on their foreheads,” for they were the remnant of those spiritual Israelites, 144,000 of them, whom John saw undergo this sealing, according to his description in Revelation 7:1-8.

  re p. 146 par. 14 says of the locusts:

  This well illustrates the loyal group of revived Christians in 1919. Like horses, they were ready for battle, eager to fight for the truth in the way described by the apostle Paul.

  This is just dumb. The locusts are told to not go harm themselves????
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  DS211

  Lol the locusts were to harm and torment those not sealed...i guess we as the great crowd torment them with door to door servic, interrupting them and telling them to join us? Absolute rubbish.

  such haughtiness is what Jesus warned of...self rightousness at its best.
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  pixel

  -deleted-
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  prologos

  There is probably more than one seal, just as there are more than one gasket on a car.

  the bible story is to confuse, divide & rule,

  and it works.
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  Doug Mason

  Read the history of the early Church's attitude towards the Revelation of John. Who accepted it? Who rejected it? It took several centuries before it was (almost) universally accepted. And I mean centuries after Athanasius produced his list in 367 (which was almost 300 years after Revelation was written). And there is no indication that his Egyptian church accepted Athanasius' list.

  Several Apocalypses ("Revelations") were in circulation; some Churches accepted one of the others. We know of the: Apocalypse of Peter; Coptic Apocalypse of Paul; Apocalypse of Paul; First Apocalypse of James; Second Apocalypse of James; Apocryphon of John; Sophia of Jesus; Letter of Peter to Philip; Apocalypse of Mary.

  In this context, I will mention another book that includes visions, was considered by some churches as Scripture and is included in the Codex Siniaticus: and that book is "The Shepherd of Hermas".

  Therefore, before relying on anything that Revelation might say, or be interpreted to say, first recognise that it was written to, for and about the period it was written in (end of the 1st century) and secondly ask: Who decided it should be included in the Canon of Scripture -- should it be in the Bible? How did it happen? When?

  Doug
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  Crazyguy

  The 144k are sealed on the earth to protect them and are not depicted in heaven until chapter 14. Another thing the great crowd have white ropes washed clean by the blood of the lamb, so then how can they then say the great crowd is not under the new covenant for in mattew Jesus says this blood means the new covenant.