If I bought Jesus in the gospel, I had to take his father too. But my background was Catholic--same basic stories though. I never really questioned theology or divine Justice. As a kid I just didn't pay attention--Oh what a carefree Catholic childhood I had compared to the JW kids.
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences
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Apognophos
By the way, I realize that my explanation of evil by way of my JW upbringing falls under cofty's point #1, so I'll save him the work of pointing that out and make two specific replies to it. First, he makes the assertion that "the fall" does not explain natural disasters like earthquakes/tsunamis because they have been happening for millions of years. What evidence do we have of that? I don't know much geology, so I'm not disputing, just inquiring. Note my suggestion that the Flood altered the tectonics. It may be impossible for me to prove, but it's a belief that is also difficult to disprove to someone who reads the Bible literally.
Secondly, cofty says that God could have calmed the wave without anyone knowing about it. This goes against the JW theodicy, which is that, when A&E sinned, they opened up man to suffer the consequences of living life outside of the Garden and without God's blessing. The idea that God should stop a tsunami is thus no more logical than suggesting that he should have prevented us from suffering the effects of imperfection. It all falls under the same aegis of "consequences of man's decision to rule himself".
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caliber
If a person tries to quote scriptures to reason on the topic ... Cofty says " and don't preach to me."
If another person does try to give personal thoughts on the matter ... it's " where did you dream this up "...you heard a voice in your head you say ?
In fact Wisdom says you must trust God for the ultimate answer
“Do not fear, for I am with you; do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.” Isaiah 41:10
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.” James 1:5
Our hope is Him, and He will return to make our wrongs – our worries – right.
2 Corinthians 4:17 says, “For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison.
Is this to minimize suffering (momentary , light suffering ..) no but it is in comparison to eternal glory (hyperbole )
Facts of faith or faith in facts which will you chose ? Only one of these will carry you to the beyond , to the great unknowns
The sacred secret is still a secret--I'm waiting for a better story. ~~Humbled
..or is the sacred secret unrolled as God sees fit ?
par·a·dox (pr-dks)
n.
1. A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: -
adamah
Apo said-
But okay, for formality's sake, here it is: the Earth used to have a different, temperate climate due to the water canopy. After the canopy was used as the water source of the Flood, the Earth's seasons became more extreme, leading to today's weather patterns. As for earthquakes/tsunamis, well, who knows, maybe all that additional water displacement is causing the plates to move differently.
And even such efforts of coming up with such speculative explanations is unnecessary, since the JW can always play their ultimate "trump card" of appealing to God's superior knowledge, eg "In the end, we just don't know right now. Perhaps God will reveal all of these details to us in the New System, but the Bible remains mute on the topic, and it is irresponsible (and ultimately a waste of time) to speculate on what we don't know...."
BTW, it's good to remember that theodicy is a SUB-SET of Xian theology which attempts to answer the question of why bad things happen to (seemingly) good people, i.e. why the righteous suffer along with the unrighteous (who actually deserve to undergo suffering, in Xian theology). So the question of why God inflicts suffering on the EVIL is automatically excluded from the theodicy issue, since God's sense of justice explains why evildoers undergo hardship and death.
So even the concept of "collateral damage" (as seen in Sodom and Gomorrah, with Abraham bargaining down to only 10 righteous, and not ONE) offers some possible worth in theodicy, since it allows for the possible death of SOME righteous people in the name of wiping out the majority of evil-doers. That conflicts with God's claimed trait of "offering perfect justice", though, but the later concept arose of each human being judged individually on their merits alone; when combined with the concept of resurrection, the harmonious solution to theodicy was found, and all such explanations operates as a system.
Which leads to another way of responding to Simon's point above:
Simon said- So actually, everyone is ok except people who 'reject the message'. Therefore, aren't Christians who preach the message really bastards who prevent people having a fair crack at life? Is that showing love or malice?
- Died in a disaster but got resurrected and asked if you now believe in god? Hell yes, of course you do!
- Had some eedjit knock on your door, parrot off some intelligible nonsense and left? Too bad, you die forever.
Of course, the commandment to preach the good news is NOT an optional request: as everyone here is painfully aware, JWs believe their very survival depends on knocking on doors (they tell themselves they do it out of love, but they also are knocking to save their own necks, as pointed out previously).
Add in the element of "God's perfect justice" (ie no collateral damage), and all those who die in Armageddon were presumably judged as 'evil-doers' and destroyed by a God who can read men's hearts. So if they die in Armageddon, the proof is in the pudding that earned it after rejecting God's message of salvation.
So JW theodicy seems to falsify Cofty's hypothesis of an inconsistency existing between God's "love" and failing to intervene in the tsunami, since it offers a quite-satisfying resolution for all, being logically-consistent when operating within the framework of JW eschatology.
And more practically-speaking, it seems to operate sufficiently-enough for 7 million JWs to accept it as satisfying, where most believers don't perceive any inconsistencies.
Adam
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KateWild
when A&E sinned, they opened up man to suffer the consequences of living life outside of the Garden and without God's blessing-Apogs
Well reasoned point Apogs, I do beleive in a creator, but this explaination form the bible story of Adam and Eve, has a cultish feel about it. IMO the bible was written by men to control women and the vulnerable.
This is a thought stopping technique to get ones to self condem and say to themselves "we suffer because we are imperfect". This gets individuals to strive and work harder for the religious organisation to validate they are good people.
I am not satified with the explaination that innocent people suffer because they are imperfect. I think a God like this who expects us to swallow this explaination is an uncaring tyrant, trying to get people to worship him beyond their limits. I am angry with God. We dont deserve to suffer evil at the hands of men or natural disasters.
Kate xx
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THE GLADIATOR
caliber Facts of faith or faith in facts which will you chose ?
This is the stumbling block. Faith does not have facts. In matters of belief in a god or gods, faith replaces facts. Quoting from ancient books is entertaining but it is not a substitute for proven facts. Then there is the matter of translation.
I am fond of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam born in 1809. As I can’t read Persian I read the translation by Edward Fitzgerald. The snag is there are 5 versions. The use of poets licence renders some verses almost unrecognisable. So, entertaining as his musings are, they are not proof of anything.
The bible is much the same, just older and far more tampered with. Quoting some of the nicer passages from it may be soothing but they offer no facts and therefore prove nothing.
You are no doubt sincere and yearn to find something firm to believe in and hope for. I have great empathy with that.
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KateWild
Quoting some of the nicer passages from it may be soothing - GLAD
I would actually say for me when I read some passages it makes me feel uneasy and angry at God, because I feel God does not do what the bible says God should do. Reading these passages gives me CD not soothing to my soul. I still believe in God, but I don't think he cares like these passeges are putting across.
But that is just for me, for many it is soothing and good for them if it is.
Kate xx
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THE GLADIATOR
Kate, nice to hear from you. Perhaps you are seeking something from the god you believe in that can only be found in people. You have your problems, I know. Good friends are the best tonic there is.
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Viviane
This goes against the JW theodicy, which is that, when A&E sinned, they opened up man to suffer the consequences of living life outside of the Garden and without God's blessing.
They were told to "fill the earth", would the garden have extended to tsunami prone areas? If so, would God have stopped the tsunami and saved people if only a naked rib-woman hadn't eaten an apple a talking snake said was good?
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Apognophos
My suggestion is that, according to JW teachings, there would be no tsunami-prone areas. But yes, if there was a tsunami developing, obviously God would stop it in that paradisaic scenario.