The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Deputy Dog

  Cofty

  All this talk (124 pages so far) about suffering? You've said in the past on this board that you were a "christian" who never believed in suffering after death. Are you saying NOW that you actualy believed in eternal suffering?

  This thread is very specifically about how to reconcile the omnipotent, loving god of christian theism with the events of 26th December 2004.

  I will not allow it to go off-topic no matter how many pages long it is.

  You need to be much more specific as to why the deaths of these people are different than all the others that die every second (average about 2) of every day (over 150,000).

  Did YOU know any personaly?
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  new hope and happiness

  Deputydog:- i always remember at art school we had a project, which involved everybody drawing a wikar chair. Now mine was brilliant!!

  Ok it was good, but this boy next to me kept looking at mine and saying it was brilliant. When i looked at his drawing it was rubbish. What could i say? Well i said " nice use of color" . Well he got such confidence from that he is now an artitect

  my point being you can't write about things unless you live them. And to be fair i think many posters on this thread have used THERE colors very respectfully and have looked for the positive in other peoples belives, but nobody on this thread will change the thinking of another no matter how good the argument.
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  sunny23

  "my point being you can't write about things unless you live them. And to be fair i think many posters on this thread have used THERE colors very respectfully and have looked for the positive in other peoples belives, but nobody on this thread will change the thinking of another no matter how good the argument."new hope and happiness

  I dont agree new hope, astrophysicists don't need to experience space personally in order to be able to discuss events that take place there. And there were arguments HERE on suffering that I personally had contributed to starting on page 1 and through various other pages even in the 115 range that were so convincing that IT DID CHANGE MY THINKING and the thinking of MissFit and a few others who have admitted it. You probably won't but if you were to read the whole thread like a book you would probably gain new insights and change your perspectives a bit as well. I wen't from a christian to an atheist from this thread alone. There were too many points brought up that i had never thought about that directly contradicted the type of God I believed in.
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  cofty

  NHAH - Your response seems to be that faith in a loving god - despite all the evidence to the contrary - gives people hope and comfort.

  I agree it does.

  But my question isn't about whether faith in god is useful. It about whether or not it is true.

  Christians share a belief in a god who is all powerful and loving. He listens to their prayers. They thank him for their food, praise him for his creations, entreat him for a new job, for help with their school exams, for the healing of their Athlete's Foot or for a parking space at a busy shopping mall. In other words, the god of christian theism is immanent. By contrast, the god of deism is distant. An indifferent observer of a universe he gave birth to and then left to it's own devices.

  It has been a recurring theme in this thread that theists pretend to be deists when you ask difficult questions.

  Christians further assert that their god is love. Jesus revealed that love means doing good things for others, even your enemies. Paul explained that "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law". - Romans 13:10

  The theme of this thread is simple - How is it possible to reconcile THIS god with the events of 26th December 2004?

  So far all attempts have been demonstrated to be vacuous

  DD - I fail to see the connection between my views on Hell and the topic of this thread. I am discussing ONLY "natural evil". Suffering caused by bad things that are not a result of the actions of other humans.
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  Quarterback

  Hmmmmm...we are still talkiing about this 8 months after? I'd say that your Paster couldn't re-convert you.
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  cofty

  nobody on this thread will change the thinking of another no matter how good the argument - NHAH

  You could not be more wrong about that. I have PMs that say otherwise. Not every christian is closed-minded.
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  cofty

  Hmmmmm...we are still talkiing about this 8 months after?

  It was parked for months and then PSac came back with his new theology degree and decided to have a go at answering the question. He offered the following...

  1 - God can choose when are where to display love

  2 - God showed his love by suffering on the cross

  3 - God uses suffering like the Asian tsunami to teach us about compassion

  4 - God is unable to prevent a tsunami

  5 - Death doesn't matter anyway
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  Deputy Dog

  cofty

  DD - I fail to see the connection between my views on Hell and the topic of this thread. I am discussing ONLY "natural evil". Suffering caused by bad things that are not a result of the actions of other humans.

  If there were no hell, (as you say you taught as a "christian"), who suffered? Death would end all suffering. Or are we talking about the suffering of those who survived?

  This thread appears to be more about your personal suffering on that day, than the people who died.
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  new hope and happiness

  No one on this thread will change the thinking of another no matter how good the argument" N.H.A.H

  You couldnt be more wrong....." Cofty

  Sometimes its nice being proved wrong Cofty. N.H.A.H.
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  jgnat

  There's a way to approach people with differing views that opens dialogue rather than polarizing them. I agree with much that Cofty is saying. I confirm that I understand by reflecting back what I heard. Covey speaks of "Seek[ing] first to understand....", and I swear it works.

  https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit5.php

  Where I challenge Cofty is that his conclusion does not invalidate faith altogether. Religion is not necessarily harmful or dangerous.

  To reach a meeting of the minds, there has to be movement towards each other. Cofty has a point that has wide-reaching implications. Respect that.

  This is the danger of apologia. In fierce defence of their god, the defender may inadvertently throw the innocent under the bus. ("They deserved it", "Undeclared Sin", "Not enough faith", or "It makes us more compassionate.")

  http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue55.htm