adamah, comfort must come from understanding. Understanding can only come from intimacy. The wise pastors I know don't jump in head-first without testing the waters first. Which is why I approach my S-I-L with the utmost gentleness. I have not swum in his waters.
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences
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cofty
So Adam you just typed all of that to declare the thread a waste of time.
You are wrong, but I would sooner put my efforts into trying to help a theist look objectively at their assumptions than waste time arguing with somebody who is a legend in their own head.
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Viviane
Adamah is the WT Anti-Type of Tec, it seems.
Side note, JGnat, I have been reading a lot of your older posts, I saw a site you referenced, Coursera, it's awesome! I like a lot of your posts and threads.
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humbled
In finding an equation to plumb the rectitude of god,natural disaster does put humans out of the equation as perpetrators. The result is damning to the image of a benevolent, all-powerful God.
I do not believe in the El-god, the Jehovah of jealous retribution in the OT.
If I unhook from OT Jehovah, how do I read Jesus? The account in Lu. 13:1-5 has Jesus saying that neither man-made nor natural disasters are negative judgements, direct or indirect against humans. (I don't have cut and paste in my limited computer skills).
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cofty
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilatehad mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
What do you think Jesus was trying to say here?
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snare&racket
I think everyone who posted should watch this satirical yet honest summary of this thread...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tdhDq5mgkx4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtdhDq5mgkx4
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humbled
cofty, You ask me what Jesus was trying to say here. I read it first when I was certain of an afterlife and judgement. And I know how I read it now.
when I read it now I consider as much of the teachings of Jesus that I know of--including those outside the bible canon. I used the evidence of good people I know who have died in "bad" ways. I read commentaries and research individual words--the words "I tell you, no"--that are said to be the most emphatic and intense expression of the negative. I researched the historical background of the events referenced...But even as I read the many commentaries going back 300 + years I realized that people who peg Jesus as the leader of the "saved" in heaven--These orthodox christians say he emphatically states the deaths reflect no special badness. These people simply died by chance.
And thus far I agree with what Jesus said.
But then the differences show up--with this question: what perishing is there for his listeners to fear?
..and, truthfully, it will be determined by the teachings he has given in other writings.
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adamah
Jgnat said-
adamah, comfort must come from understanding. Understanding can only come from intimacy. The wise pastors I know don't jump in head-first without testing the waters first. Which is why I approach my S-I-L with the utmost gentleness. I have not swum in his waters.
Well, after re-reading Cofty's first post again it seems like the conversation developed rather naturally, i.e. Cofty voluntarily engaged, and even brought up the tsunami (what caused a loss of faith), and the pastor took it as an invitation to discuss religion: after all, that's what preachers do, trying to provide comforting theodicies (AKA soothing answers to disturbing questions).
BTW, I'm not speaking of providing comfort, as the kind provided to a relative after the death of a loved one simply by holding them in your arms or holding their hand; this pastor was essentially a stranger to him, and the 'comfort' was purely theodocial, trying to answer his questions.
It's interesting how the pastor tried to tie 'free will' into 'natural evil': that's just especially lame-brained. But the fact the pastor didn't have a satisfactory answer speaks of how little such an answer matters to most believers, since most don't question it.
And the most-satisfactory answer for many was actually the one mentioned by Cofty in the first few posts: "faith". In the final analysis, it all ultimately boils down to faith, and whether someone thinks faith is a valuable gift to be given from God after begging for it, or something to be avoided like the H1N1 virus.
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KateWild
I think everyone who posted should watch this satirical yet honest summary of this thread...-snare
It was funny, but shame the guy was motivated by hate of the ideals to fundraise for an Atheist. Kate xx