Where else is there to go?

by snare&racket 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • adamah
    adamah

    I always think of the example of a large elephant bull which is raised from birth being confined by a strong steel chain. As it grows, it learns that it's useless to test the strength of the chain, since it won't budge. Eventually the animal grows into an adult, and can be confined by only using a thin rope which it could break easily, if only it hadn't given up even trying when the animal was young.

    JWs also emotionally retard their members by relying on the scriptures in the ancient Bible which contains Simon Peter's similar emotionally-hamstrung plea of, "But Lord, where else would we go?" To say the Bible gives the members 'strength' is part of the topsy-turvy World of Xianity.

  • Separation of Powers
    Separation of Powers

    Thank you for sharing this post.

    The question, "Where else is there to go?" is the standard reply when all else fails. It is the quintessential cognitive dissonance response. When you have spoken your piece about the hypocrisy, the double standard, the failed prophecy, the child abuse scandal, the UN scandal, the blatant revisionism, the lack of love, the authoritarian structure similar to the Catholic Church hierarchy and everything else there is WRONG with this organization, well, how do you respond to that? It's like in their mind they are saying, "Yes, yes, yes, I understand that and yes, it's true, but we've invested so much time and effort and sacrifice. Is this all for naught?" So, they look at you, perplexed and bewildered and slightly envious of the fact that you have mentally disconnected yourself from the process and hit you with the only response left...

    When Peter was asked, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" His reply, "Lord to WHOM shall we go? YOU have words of enteral life." (John 6:67,68) His reply was an expression of faith in his teacher and the words of his teacher. He believed that Jesus was the Son of God. So, when someone asks that same question to a person who has lost faith, interest or regard for the organization, it is simply an expression of their faith in the organization, the same organization that has taken the place of Jesus, a substitute if you will.

    I have heard that question myself, and I have answered it with the same basic premise. I do not need SOMEWHERE else. The same people who would ask that question are the ones that would say, "being part of the organization can't save you, it's what's in your heart. Jehovah judges hearts." Well, he can judge mine separately and distinctly from a group of drones...can't he?

    SOP

  • man in black
    man in black

    Interesting post, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    When my wife and I walked away from the jws she just jumped with both feet into mormonism.

    It has now been seven years, and I am continually beating myself up because I do not belong to a religious organization.

    She seems so happy with her new friends, and I deal with the indoctrination undercurrent most of the time.

    Yet deep down I feel very insecure, and like Im missing something needed to be happy.

    So your posting really resonated with me. Learning to develop a new mentality regarding spiritual happiness is like walking over a minefield.

  • Rebecca 619
    Rebecca 619

    The statement that everything becomes tainted is soo true i notice when my son who is dfd tells me how hes doing in college and his goals and he recently got a great job that recpect his schedule for school, he is so excited, and in my tainted mind i think yeah but hes not going to meetings, even now knowing what i know, i have to learn we can have a relationship with God without all these rule.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Where else is there to go?

    This question has popped up before by people here and other JWS from time to time.

    I think what Terry stated is my pretty much my own opinion.

    I would add that there are many other extenuating circumstances

    why a person should leave this particular religious cult.

    .

    Reflecting upon the fact that this religion has caused the deaths of thousands through banning vaccinations,

    organ transplants, blood transfusions. etc.

    It has broken up millions of families due its shunning policy.

    It has caused hundreds to commit suicide inadvertently because of this DFing and shunning.

    .

    The very doctrines it created and adheres to are known to be bogus and false out of the fact they were

    devised as commercial vehicles to promote and proliferate the WTS's literature and so have been accordingly

    protected through mental regulation and indoctrination.

    .

    This religious organization has also caused people's intellectual growth to be stunted due

    to shunning higher education, focusing on children hurting themselves and to the greater extent humanity.

    .

    With all those elements realized how could a person with clean moral consciences stay and support

    this corrupt and very dangerous man made publishing organization ?

  • humbled
    humbled

    Right on, Snare,

    So many remarks in OP reflected the last comments the elders had for me--and I didn't have an answer. I just knew that shutting down one's conscience was spiritual death any way...

    Good to review the fear that used to govern our 'choices' inside the Halls of so called "Truth"--

    Maeve

  • steve2
    steve2

    Whatever specifically each JW means when they raise this stunt-ridden question, the dreary fact is it is raised rhetorically, never but never out of genuine interest in your answer. The JW who raises this question is doing so for effect not to hear your answer- unless they seize upon your answer as "evidence" of apostasy.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Doc ssked the following.... As I would have as a JW!....

    But who else is following Jesus' command to preach house-to-house? Why follow anyone, who wrote that verse, when , why? On closer analysis, it is referring to jesus and his apostles going to stay at interested people's houses. Look at the original text, did jesus command that? IF.. if he did... So what? In the context of evidence, what does it matter that this was written down? Search ALL the historical evidence on jesus and the bible FIRST before you live by it! This is basic common sense! If i handed you a book, told you it was holy, would you just accept that and follow if? Chapter one... Every thursday you must walk like a chicken and bring me, thy lord, a kfc zinger tower meal to the most holy of holies...(my front garden).

    But how will we follow Jesus' command to make disciples? Again, on assuming the person has reached a point where they know JW's are wrong on many things, how bad is it to make people subscribe to these wrong beliefs! Also why follow anyone, who was jesus, what evidence was there for him, what else did the JW's get wrong and lie about? The bible? It makes no sense to either jump back to the JW's or to a random christian religion. It makes logicsl sense to start from scratch when you know you have been lied to. Certainly this should be step one before you encourage others to follow them!

    But whom else is doing a world-wide preaching work? Lots of religions are doing this, in fact any religion that is world wide must have done this to become world wide. Some hold classes, some print bibles, some do charity, some do sermons, some sold literature until tax laws prevented their sale....

    Where & how shall we worship Jehovah? With whom shall we "gather together" for worship? Again, start from scratch, is god's name even jehovah? Evidence and history is embarassingly clear.... No it is not his name! Who is the god of the bible. Is he the god the JWs portray him to be? Why not read the bible and see....(several months later). Oh my god.... Hes an evil git! This negates the 'worship' problem. Also, this argument says that a man and a bible is not enough to please god, he must first build a hall, convert locals and then worship together... Nonsense. This argument was put to me by an elder and I said "I would rather face god and defend my intepretation of his message, than stand before him sheepishly trying to explain why I followed 8 dudes in brooklyn who made several HUGE mistakes,seversl HUGE false prophecies, had hundreds of thousands of dead peoples blood on their hands and was a worldly financisl institution in of itself. Where in the bible does it say you need these 8 dudes?" I now don't believe in god, but they had no answer for me back then. I alsoasked them how they could hang their spirituality on 8 men they could not name and did not even know. It is a terrible logic!

    Their obvious answer to any of those questions takes them back to JWs. Too true...why.... Because they want it to lead back to JW's, thats how such movements survive. Who WANTS to hear that they wasted half a life? ........ :(

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    As indicated by some of the earlier posts, it's a question born out of fear. And it may well be rhetorical, as steve2 says. That doesn't mean there isn't a good answer we can give. I think it's better to cut to the heart of the matter; frankly I don't care if Peter said "who" or "where" because the thought being expressed by the Witness is "I can't imagine life without the Watchtower" and we need to reply to what they're really meaning to say, not split semantic hairs.

    Maybe we can say something like, "Well, I'm going to start living like this life is the real life. All the stuff we wanted to do in the new system? I'm going to work towards that now. Sure, maybe I'll never get to pet a lion, but I can work hard, enjoy the rewards, take more vacations, move some place nicer, enjoy life just as God said he wants us to, etc. Why are you acting like life has to end without the religion, when we're always being told that 'this isn't the real life' to begin with? Life is just getting started for me!" Or we could just talk about some personal ambition that we have, whether it's creative, or wanting to do something to contribute to society, etc. Maybe our optimism and ambition will rub off on them.

    I'd like to share a theory here which I've been pecking away at. Coming back to what steve2 wrote, "Actually, the strong fear-based inclination of humans to remain in unsatisfactory situations for dubious reasons such as not letting themselves generate alternatives is not confined to religious affiliation." Personally I suspect that the reason for this kind of inertia is that most people do not feel that they have a lot to contribute to society. This is a subconscious feeling, not something that someone will usually think or say out loud. It's an inner sense that "I do not have enough talent to make a difference in this world" or "I'm not good enough to achieve at a higher level instead of sticking with the status quo." The ones who leave the org. with a positive mindset ("I'm going to live a good life", not "I'm fed up with this $%^#" or "I'm DFed and I feel like a piece of crap") are the ones who have an innate, pre-existing drive to do something with themselves; they know they have capabilities and they know they are worth something as people.

    This is a tricky problem to solve because it seems to involve something fundamental in each individual. Think about people growing up in the slums. Most of them will never leave. A small number actually do, and these are the ones that feel that they can amount to something. Maybe they feel they're better-looking, smarter, stronger, or more creative than the people around them. But it has to start with their own inner feeling about themself. (Amazing, eye-opening, touching and very relevant article, but too lengthy to discuss here: Invisible Child; I suggest taking a couple hours to read it.)

    If it's true that this is something in-born, we might feel, "Well then some people are just screwed, aren't they? They're not endowed with the right genetic basis for feeling that they have enough talent to make something of themselves without the Watchtower, so they'll always be a Watchtower slave." We can't really say whether some people have more talent than others; a lot of people probably have undiscovered talents. Also, some people are temporarily damaged, or sitting on a borderline between wanting to stay and wanting to leave; we can help these people, but it takes time; no pithy response to "Where will we go away to?" is going to do the trick. We have to make them realize that they're better (morally, intellectually, perhaps even physically) than they think they are, which requires an investment in time and emotion.

    So for some JWs, it might be that we just need to give them a little push -- leading by example and showing them we're not afraid of the world out there. They'll be impacted by this, they'll dwell on it, they'll realize they have some real living they want to do too, and in time they'll leave the WT too. For others, well, some people are charity cases :-) But if we care for them, we'll take the time to build them up step by step, just in case they can be saved.

  • Alligator Wisdom
    Alligator Wisdom

    BTTT

    snare&racket, your OP is exactly what I needed to read. An excellent dissection of the topic.

    Recenty I was asked the same "where" question by a well acquainted brother. I told him that it's actually "who".

    He responded, "Basically where and who are the same".

    I'm saving this thread because of all of the great responses and thoughts.

    Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously)

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