The Cult of N. Korea--Frontline's “Secret State of North Korea” compare to WTBTS--discussion

by FlyingHighNow 16 Replies latest social current

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Did any of you see this program on PBS? Did you see how dangerously similar N. Korea is to the WTBTS? Did you notice one huge difference, that North Koreans are not brainwashed like most still active JWs are? I'm interested in your thoughts on the show. If you haven't seen it, find it and watch it, if this kind of thing interests you.

    Some of my observations and thoughts:

    Some things about N. Korea that struck me are the strict dress code (police harrassing woman for her attire, her angrily fighting back), cell phones that only call inside the country/ but it is forbidden to have a sim card that allows contact outside N. Korea. News, movies, TV, radio etc. from outside the country, especially S. Korea are banned, even under threat of death for breaking the rules. It is felt that exposure to pop culture from outside the country causes rebellion.

    It's chilling, the similarties between N. Korea and the WTBTS. I've often said that fear can be a more effective way to control the masses. Fear of god(s) can be more effective than government or rules alone. It's one thing to fear authorities. N. Koreans live in relative fear of the authorities, but many, many of them rebel against the laws and authorities, even in the face of death. On the other hand, if you can convince people that their god will get them if they don't follow a code of conduct, it's more likely they will be compliant. * I am not an athiest and don't see that all religions are about this kind of control.* The extreme cults such as the WTBTS and some fundamentalist sects come to mind though. Kim Jong Un may not understand the misuse of religion to control people, but I'm betting that ancients knew it all too well.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZms5O-MwOU

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/arts/television/pbs-frontline-looks-inside-a-notoriously-closed-country.html?_r=0

    Glimpses of a North Korea Seldom Seen in the West
    PBS ‘Frontline’ Looks Inside a Notoriously Closed Country

    PBS’s “Frontline” enjoys some morbid good timing on Tuesday night, presenting its report “Secret State of North Korea” in the wake of the execution last month of Jang Song-thaek, uncle of the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un, and the return to the country this month of the former N.B.A. player and amateur diplomat Dennis Rodman.

    Demonstrating its usual good news judgment, the program inserts a reference to Mr. Jang’s death and its implications for the stability of Mr. Kim’s regime but makes no mention of Mr. Rodman.

    The focus of “Secret State” is the movement of information into, and out of, one of the world’s most sealed-off countries. Its most dramatic element are snippets of film shot inside North Korea by members of an underground network of citizen journalists organized by a Japan-based news agency.

    There’s no way to judge how characteristic the images are, but there’s no denying their grim fascination. Piles of rubble, ox and hand carts and abandoned, starving children are recurring themes.
    Launch media viewer
    Frontline: Secret State of North Korea This PBS documentary, on Tuesday night, shows work inside the country by clandestine photographers. PBS

    In an ad hoc encampment of orphans, a boy of perhaps 9 or 10 is asked by the photographer if he has thought of seeking work chopping wood. He can’t, he replies, because he’s missing an arm, cut off by a train.

    Particularly gripping is a scene illustrating the rising power of private enterprise: A woman using a truck as an illegal bus fights back against a soldier who tries to stop her, asking where his stars are (to indicate his rank) and shoving him out of the way.

    Around this raw reportage, the program investigates the question of whether North Korea is approaching a tipping point where the flow of information into the country could foster radical change. We’re shown DVDs and thumb drives containing movies and television shows being smuggled across the border, and North Koreans huddled in their bedrooms watching them.

    Perhaps the most significant change the program reports is the explosion of cellphone ownership since these devices were reintroduced five years ago. The phones for sale can call only within North Korea but can be illegally adapted to make international calls.

    The experts the program consults agree that change is taking place, but some are more optimistic than others about its pace.

    “If a government is willing to kill as many people as necessary to stay in power,” says Andrei Lankov, a Russian expert on North Korea, “it usually stays in power for a very long time.”

  • Gypsy Sam
    Gypsy Sam

    Marked.

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    For real? A thread like this can detract from legitimate criticisms against the WTBTS ... Please educate yourself on North Korea and it's severe human rights record.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I'll answer your rrply, Dig, when I can get to my PC. I think you dont know the scope of the in depth look into N Koreas human rights violations that the documentary takes, up close, inside its borders. Will come back later.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    For real? A thread like this can detract from legitimate criticisms against the WTBTS .

    In what way are comparisons betweem countries like N. Korea, where the citizens are forced to worship their leader and comply, even to the death, or not comply even to the death, not legitimate? The governing body exacts similar control over Jehovah's Witnesses. No, they do not literally imprison JWs or execute them, but they do well in convincing JWs that if they are not 100% compliant to the WTBTS set of rules, they will die eternally, which is a spiritual, emotional form of terrorism and control. I mentioned other dangerous cults and fundamentalists, too. This is a comparison of similarities between the kind of control a dicatatorship exercises over a closed country and the kind of control a religious cult exercises over a closed society. They both use fear. They both expect compliance even up to death, to show loyalty. They both cut citizens/members off from the rest of the world. They both try to control what information and especially criticism citizens/members are exposed to, with a mind to control them.The both micromanage the lives of citizens/members to the point of abuse. They both strive to control even the thoughts and desires of their citizens/members.

    I suggest finding the program on line and viewing it. You might be able to see that the violation of the rights of the citizens of N. Korea, though of course more violent, is very much like the WTBTS in many ways. If you were ever a JW, then you know about the constant examples from ancient Israel in how people were forced to be compliant. The WTBTS governing body cannot enforce the physical constraints and violence that ancient Israel did. Instead, they do very well with using fear of Jehovah to accomplish the same kinds of abuses of personal freedom and rights. They have set themselves up as rulers over JWs, worldwide. They destroy the lives of individuals and families, abuse children and break up families. They cause the deaths of their members, including babies and children.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    I'm not entirely sure what digderidoo was trying to say. Even if N. Korea is worse than the Watchtower in degree, it can still make for an apt comparison in nature. Even so, FHN gave examples of how some Koreans are much less compliant than JWs, showing that the kind of control that the Society has could well be worse in some ways. I think it's definitely an appropriate comparison.

  • Twitch
  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Will watch this online. . .

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Thank you, Apognophos. I'm relieved to know my OP isn't completely incoherent.

    Even so, FHN gave examples of how some Koreans are much less compliant than JWs, showing that the kind of control that the Society has could well be worse in some ways.

    I've long theorized that fear has always been the best tool to control individuals, groups or masses. I wonder if men figured out a long time ago, that to play on the basic fears of human beings is very effective in keeping them under control. I'll use women for example. Women have more of a natural need to protect their bodies when it comes to sexual intercourse. We have more to lose in that we can become pregnant. So I look at women as the gatekeepers to sex, more of the time than not. It gives us kind of natural advantage and even power in sexual situations. Think back a long time ago. A man could beat up a woman or tie her up and force her to comply to sexual relations. That's a lot of trouble and bruises and restraints are not a turn on for every man. Men could make laws requiring wives to submit everytime their husbands desired sex. Then what? Haul them down to the jail for non compliance? Put them in public stocks? It's not exactly going to get the husbands sex with their wives. What to do? Convince women that their god(s)/goddesses will torture or condemn them eternally if they do not submit to sex with their husbands. The only effort required is to play on the fears of the women. No beatings, restraints or jails are necessary, unless of course the women don't care about eternity.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Thank you, Twitch, for the link. What struck me about N. Koreans is that while some are brainwashed, the N. Korean techniques aren't affective with all citizens. This means the WTBTS is possibly more effective than even the N. Korean govt in brainwashing techniques.

    Breakfast and Gypsy, I'll be interested in your comments.

    Something striking about N. Koreans is the poverty that many suffer, especially children. This makes me think of the poverty Jehovah's Witnesses experience due to the lack of education and pressure not to have jobs that interfere with meetings, study, etc.

    This is cut and paste from Twitch's link:

    Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism

    Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism
    Thought Reform Lifton.jpg
    Book cover, 1989 edition
    Author Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.
    Translator Richard Jaffe (Chinese)
    Cover artist Shelley Gruendler
    Country United States
    Language English
    Subject Psychology
    Brainwashing
    Mind control
    Genre Non-fiction
    Publisher Norton, New York (1961, first edition)
    University of North Carolina Press (reprint)
    Publication date 1961, 1989 (UNC Press reprint)
    Media type Paperback
    Pages 524 (1989 reprint)
    ISBN 0-8078-4253-2
    OCLC Number 19388265
    Dewey Decimal 153.8/53/0951 19
    LC Classification BF633 .L5 1989

    Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China is a non-fiction book by psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton on the psychology of brainwashing and mind control.

    Lifton's research for the book began in 1953 with a series of interviews with American servicemen who had been held captive during the Korean War. In addition to interviews with 25 Americans, Lifton also interviewed 15 Chinese who had fled their homeland after having been subjected to indoctrination in Chinese universities. From these interviews, which in some cases occurred regularly for over a year, Lifton identified the tactics used by Chinese communists to cause drastic shifts in one's opinions and personality and "brainwash" American soldiers into making demonstrably false assertions.

    The book was first published in 1961 by Norton in New York. [ 1 ] The 1989 reprint edition was published by University of North Carolina Press. [ 2 ] Lifton is a Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York.

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