Could i possily be one of the sealed?

by msconcerned 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    The sealing of the 144,000 is, at present, a question mark. The only thing we have, really, is what John tells us. We're not even sure of whether the number is literal or figurative. Twelve was a significant number (12 tribes, 12 apostles), as is the number seven, which indicates completion. For any group of scholars or churchmen to claim to know the details without revelation is foolish. The difference between revelation and light is that revelation is that which is revealed, new information not previously known. Light is the illumination of that which has been revealed.

    The Governing Body has always claimed light, but never revealers of information not contained in the scriptures. Either way they would have to be prophets, called and ordained of God. And if prophets, they'd have to be appointed in the same way prophets were anciently. And that would necessitate witnesses of their divine callings.

    For example, in Revelation 11, we read that John was commanded to measure the yet unbuilt third temple. Then he was wrote of two latter-day prophets that would be raised up to the Jews. One wonders whether these two prophets will be Jehovah's Witnesses (after all, the are called "witnesses"), but the Governing Body has already determined these two prophets are figurative (for more, you'll have to read the Society's ridiculous exegesis in its big red book on John's Apocalypse). To make the claims they do would require not light, but new revelation.

    The same thing is true for the 144,000, in Revelation 7 and 14. Twelve thousand from each tribe. John writes in Chapter 7:

    And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Strangely, these 144,000 were from all the tribes with the exception of Dan. But it seems they will be future servants of God who are sealed for a future mission. Each is given a crown, which is to say they have received their salvation. But they aren't the only ones to receive this gift and honor. The Lord states, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

    Several verses later he states: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."(Rev. 12:3, 21)

    In other words, the 144,000 will be part of a much larger group which will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and gain eternal life. But they will have special callings that the others don't have. Nevertheless, their inheritance is sure.

    AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    Notice that it's Jesus on the throne, not the Father. This adds to the already overwhelming evidence that Jesus was known before his birth as Jehovah, and it was he who spoke to the fathers, to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and others. Jehovah is our mediator, our Savior and our advocate with the Father. But John said it was not the Lamb's name on the foreheads of the 144,000, but the Father's name. And that's all we know. Some believe these men will be special emissaries that will preach the gospel during the Millennium. John says they will sing before the four beasts "and the elders," which, I guess, means that none of the elders will be numbered with them!

    To claim to be one of these holy beings would be highly presumptuous unless it is revealed to you by God. When John asked who the great multitude of holy resurrected beings were who were arrayed in white, the angel replied, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Both they and the 144,000 receive the same reward, but the mission of the latter is different. Both inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Anything more or less than this is purely speculation. And the way the Governing Board makes these wildly speculative and sometimes grossly illogical and irresponsible connections of history and scripture is nothing short of breathtaking. It's one thing when Daniel would listen to a dream and then say, "The God of Heaven has revealed to me the meaning of your dream." He would attribute his interpretations to God. But the GB members don't make similar attributions.

    .

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    kaik wrote:

    None of the tribes of Israel exists anymore.

    Who says? God scattered them into all nations, so they are "scattered," not living in 12 lump sums. :)

    Not everyone who is a citizen of Israel is Jew...

    No kidding. I never said they were.

    ...and not every Jew is interested to live in Israel.

    Again, no joke. The majority of them live here in USA.

    How I know? I am married to one.

    And how do I know? I used to work for one for many years & had a bestest girlfriend who was/is one. (She was JW, the employer was not).

    None of the mentioned tribes of the Revelation has whatsoever association with a current state of Israel...

    You really don't know that for a fact. You don't know WHO they are, or WHERE they are. SOME may be there. SOME may not be there.

    Besides, Revelation is FUTURE still. The Judeo-Masons w/Rothschild Money, who set up & are running Israel, are phoneys for sure, they are "those who say they are Jews but are not & do lie" (Rev. 2:9 & 3:9). However, they will deceive World Jewry everywhere (eventually) that they need to flee to Israel, even the ones who at present have no desire to do so (not that they ALL will). How might they do that? Since the majority live in the USA, some day they may cause something horrifying to happen here in the USA that will scare USA-Jews to flee to Israel (just like they scared European Jewry via WW2/Holocaust to "prompt them" to move to Israel).

    I already warned my former boss to NEVER MOVE THERE no matter what happens... unless he wants to be found practically at the feet of the Antichrist someday who will make a showing of himself in Jerusalem in the future.

    The full 144,000 of the future may not necessarily ALL be in Current-Israel at that time. Some may be, some may not. Matthew 24:31 says the Lord Jesus Christ will "gather his elect from the four winds of the heavens" AFTER He comes back.

    (Israel) ...where majority of people do not give a rat about Revelation.

    Again, no kidding. Nobody said Modern-Israel would become "very religious." As a majority they never will. Scripture says 2/3 will be killed, only a 1/3 remnant will God save "through the fire" of the Tribulation: Zech. 13:8-9.

    The Lord Jesus Christ picks the 144,000 remnant, no matter where they are scattered on the planet, whether some, or all, are now, or will eventually be, living in Modern-Israel. But Modern-Israel will have nothing to do with the choosing of the 144,000. Jesus does the choosing. God ALWAYS has had & will have a faithful remnant of Original Israel. Otherwise He would be a liar. Paul confirmed this in Romans ch.11 (see bottom).

    To whom John wrote and dedicated his book is a guess that is 1900 years old. Back in the 100AD the early Christians were already confused on the meaning of the book.

    People give up way too easy on Scripture. "We can't understand it, so it CANNOT be true," yadda yadda yadda. You may be confused about it, but it's really not that complicated. People are just not looking for understanding, evidently. Easier to give up. Try BELIEVING what it says, then look for answers/understanding. If you're saved, ask the Lord for direction.

    ~~~

    Romans 11

    1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; t hat blindness in part is happened to Israel, **UNTIL** the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    ~~~

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    Cold Steel, you did a great job up there summing things up re WT & the 144,000. I would only disagree with a few points, however.

    We're not even sure of whether the number is literal or figurative.

    Back in Elijah's day, God said he had a faithful remnant of Israel numbering 7,000 who did not bow the knee to Ba'al. So from Elijah's day until now & future Tribulation, would it be so hard to believe God has 134,000 additional Hebrews who have remained faithful? Why people are so anxious to NOT believe Scripture literally just boggles the mind. The idea of "spiritualizing" Scripture began back when some of the weak in faith gave up that Christ was ever coming back (they not realizing God wanted to spend a few thousand years gathering in GENTILES, especially since He spent approx. 1,500 years previously with Israel ALONE, so 2,000 years to gather Gentiles only makes sense!) So they decided, "Hey, we cannot believe that LITERALLY anymore. We must do something about that problem. Hey, here's an idea. Let's just SPIRITUALIZE everything. This means that, that means this. Nothing means WHAT IT SAYS anymore," etc. etc.

    For any group of scholars or churchmen to claim to know the details without [about?] Revelation is foolish.

    Ehhh, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. (Well, what WT says is foolish, indeed! lol) But REAL Biblical Christianity doesn't have a problem understanding Revelation. Maybe exJWs need to "get out more," lol. The Bible always INTERPRETS ITSELF first & foremost, so the answers are already in Scripture & they are VERY LITERAL. The WT loves to take the OT LITERALLY yet with the NT they want to "spiritualize" much of it. Tsk Tsk!

    ...Revelation 11... two latter-day prophets that would be raised up to the Jews... the Governing Body has already determined these two prophets are figurative...

    The GB wants to turn the attention of the JWs completely AWAY from the literal fulfillment of prophecies concerning Israel/Hebrews/Jews, etc. They've got the JWs looking in "all the wrong places." The two witnesses are easily identified right in Revelation 11 itself. The miracles that they do are exactly what Elijah & Moses did in the past. Believe what it says! Let the Bible interpret itself! So it's a good bet that the two witnesses WILL BE Elijah & Moses! (They are also the same two who appeared on each side of the Lord at the transfiguration).

    One wonders whether these two prophets will be Jehovah's Witnesses (after all, the are called "witnesses")...

    Well, the WT deciding to call JWs JWs in 1935 was wrong from the Get-Go. They took Scripture out of context & applied it to themselves when it meant no such thing. That verse in Isaiah re "ye are my witnesses saith the LORD/YHWH/JHVH" was directed TO ISRAEL. Period. Over & Out. Israel made up God's "witnesses" so it only makes sense that the two witnesses of Revelation who do miracles just like Eliah & Moses, WILL BE ELIJAH & MOSES of Ancient-Israel-Returned, & NOT ANY JW! :)

    ...were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of ALL the tribes of the children of Israel. -- Strangely, these 144,000 were from all the tribes with the exception of Dan...

    So the next question should be, What happened to the tribe of DAN & why was he left OUT of the 144,000? (Instead, many Bible-bashers use the above verse as a reason the Bible can't be trusted, can't be true, etc. Or, as the WT did when I was still "in," they said the fact Dan was left out was "proof" that Rev. 7 could NOT ever apply to Israel/Jews, etc.)

    Here's an excellent summary of WHY Dan is "missing in action" from the 144,000 > > He was basically a BAD GUY, was like a SERPENT & an ADDER, per the prophecy of his father Jacob over him. Now who but the Devil gets the SERPENT moniker? Ah ha! We're getting warm! The DEVIL's Representative during the Tribulation, the Antichrist, will be the Devil's Serpent-Man from the Tribe of Dan as scholars allow the Bible to INTERPRET ITSELF. This info is from the much longer "Gleanings in Genesis by A. W. Pink. 39. Jacob’s Prophecy (Continued), Genesis 49"[ http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Gleanings_Genesis/genesis_39.htm ]:

    "Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse’s heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. I have waited for Thy salvation, O Lord" (Gen. 49:16-18). With this prophecy of Jacob concerning the tribe of Dan should be compared that of Moses, recorded in Deuteronomy 33:22, "And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion’s whelp: he shall leap from Bashan." It is to be seen that both predicted evil of that tribe, around which there seems to be a cloud of mystery.

    The first thing that Scripture records of Dan is his low birth. (See Gen. 30:1-6). Next, he is brought before us in Genesis 37:2, though he is not there directly mentioned by name. It is highly significant that of the four sons of Bilhah and Zilpah, Dan was the oldest, being at that time twenty years of age, and so, most likely, the ringleader in the "evil" which Joseph reported to their father. Next, in Genesis 46, reference is made to the children of Jacob’s sons: the descendants of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and the others, being specifically named in order. But when Dan is reached, the names of his sons are not given; instead, they are simply called by the tribal name—Hushim or Shuham. (See Gen. 46:23). This is the more striking, because in Numbers 26 we meet with the same thing again: the children born to each of Jacob’s twelve sons are carefully enumerated until Dan is reached, and then, as in Genesis 46, his descendants are not named,simply the tribal title being given. (See Num. 26:42). This concealment of the names of Dan’s children is the first indication of that silent "blotting out" of his name, which meets us in the total omission of this tribe from the genealogies recorded in 1 Chronicles 2 to 10, as well as in Revelation 7, where, again, no mention is made of any being "sealed" out of the tribe of Daniel There seems to have been an unwillingness on the part of the Holy Spirit to even mention this tribe by name. In cases where the names of all the tribes aregiven, Dan is generally far down, often last of all, in the list. For example, we read in Numbers 10:25, "And the standard of the camp of the children of Dan set forward, which was the rearward of all the camps throughout their hosts." Again, Dan was the lastof the tribes to receive his inheritance when Joshua divided up the land—"This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Dan according to their families, these cities with their villages. When they had made an end of dividing the land for inheritance by their coasts, the children of Israel gave an inheritance to Joshua" (Josh. 19:47-49). Note again that in 1 Chronicles 27:16-22,where all the tribes are referred to, Dan is mentioned last!

    Putting together the several prophecies of Jacob and Moses we find two traits met in Dan—treachery "a serpent by the way, an adder in the path"; and cruelty: "Dan is a lion’s whelp;he shall leap from Bashan." In Judges 18 the Holy Spirit has recorded at length how these predictions received their first fulfillment. The attack of this tribe on Laish was serpentile in its cunning and lionlike in its cruel execution. Then it was that Dan leaped from Bashan, and from the slopes of Mount Hermon (which was in the territory of this tribe) like a young lion and like an adder springing on its prey. From Judges 18:30 we learn that Dan was the first of the tribes to fall into Idolatry. Apparently they remained in this awful condition right until the days of Jeroboam, for we find that when this apostate king set up his two golden calves, saying, "Behold thy gods, O Israel," he set up one in Bethel and "the other put he inDan" (1 Kings 12:28, 29). And, as late as the time of Jehu these two golden calves were still standing, and it is a significant and solemn fact that though there was a great reformation in his day, so that the prophets and worshippers of Baal were slain and the images were burned and the house of Baal was broken down, yet we are told, "Howbeit,from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan"(2 Kings 10:29).

    One other item in Jacob’s prophecy concerning this tribe remains to be noticed—"Dan shall judge his people." This received a partial fulfillment in the days of Samson—though we doubt not that its final fulfillment awaits the time of the great tribulation. Joshua 19:41 informs us that among the towns allotted to this tribe were Zorah and Eshtaol. Compare with this Judges 13:2, which tells us that the parents of Samson belonged to the tribe of Dan and had their home in Zorah. How remarkably the prophecies of Jacob and Moses combined in the person of Samson (one of Israel’s "judges") is apparent on the surface. Serpent-like methods and the lion’s strength characterized each step in his strange career. How Samson "bit," as it were, "the horse’s heels" in his death!

    It is to be noted that after Jacob had completed his prophecy concerning Dan, and ere he took up the next tribe, that he said, "I have waited for Thy salvation, O Lord" (Gen. 49:18). This is very striking and significant, coming in just where it does. Having spoken of Dan as "a serpent by the way," the Holy Spirit seems to have brought to his mind the words spoken by God to that old Serpent the Devil, recorded in Genesis 3:15. The eye of the dying patriarch looks beyond the "Serpent" to the one who shall yet "bruise his head," and therefore does he say, "I have waited forThy salvation, O Lord." No doubt these very words will yet be appropriated in a coming day by the godly remnant among the Jews. If, as it has been generally held by prophetic students, both ancient and modern, both among Jews and Gentiles, that the Anti-Christ will spring from this tribe of Dan, the ancient prophecy of Jacob concerning the descendants of this son will then receive its final fulfillment. Then, in a supreme manner, will Dan (in the person of the Anti-Christ) "judge"and rule over "his people," i.e., Israel; then, will Dan be a "serpent in the way" and "anadder in the path," then will he treacherously and cruelly "bite the horse’s heels." And then, too, will that faithful company, who refuse to worship the Beast or receive his "mark,"cry, "I have waited for Thy salvation, O Lord?’

    And there you have it! The Mystery of Dan The Serpent Man! :)

    Back to Cold Steel comments...

    Notice that it's Jesus on the throne, not the Father. This adds to the already overwhelming evidence that Jesus was known before his birth as Jehovah, and it was he who spoke to the fathers, to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and others. Jehovah is our mediator, our Savior and our advocate with the Father.

    AMEN re ALL THAT! Totally AGREE 1,000%! One of the most beautiful things I learned in the post-JW years was exactly that, that JESUS IS JEHOVAH of the OT, who walked/talked with Adam in the cool of the day, who appeared to Abraham, who spoke with his descendants, who was the Captain of the Host who stood before Joshua, etc. etc. THRILLING!

    Throughout all of Scripture, Father God remains unnamed & invisible, as does the Holy Spirit. Only the Son, who stepped out from the invisible to the visible to be THE WORD, the COMMUNICATOR with MANKIND, is progressively REVEALED throughout Scripture by His many titles & NAMES, & He has more names that we are not yet aware as is stated in Revelation.

    Some believe these men will be special emissaries that will preach the gospel during the Millennium.

    Other think they will be preaching during the Tribulation (& thereafter as well).

    ...the way the Governing Board makes these wildly speculative and sometimes grossly illogical and irresponsible connections of history and scripture is nothing short of breathtaking.

    Now THAT's a fact! = Breathtaking as in Suffocating! ;)

    ~~~

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    Another site that is heavily researched & one of my favorites, has a lot of info re the Tribe of Dan, here's just one for starters:

    Summary/Outline:

    THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN

    THE EARLY JEWISH & CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE IDENTITY OF THE ANTICHRIST

    http://www.watch.pair.com/dan.html

    [...]

    TABLE OF CONTENTS

    Introduction

    I. Consider the Prophecies

    Different Bible versions allow for different interpretations of prophecy. Therefore, the traditional view represented by the King James Version is used in this report. Scripture indicates the following: That the Antichrist is Jewish; He will come from the region of Dan/Mount Hermon [Mount Sion] in the north of Israel as a false fulfillment of Romans 11:26; The tribe of Dan will be rejected by God as part of the 144,000 and will be used by God to bring judgment upon Israel and the unbelieving world.

    II. Consider the People

    The Arcadian roots of the Merovingians, Spartans and Celts seem to be connected to the tribe of Dan because of their use of Dan-related place-names, personal names and peculiarities, i.e., Baal/goddess worship and architectural skills.

    III. Consider the Locations

    The Tribe of Dan inherited the pre-flood paganism [Baal worship] of the Canaanites [descendants of Ham and his son, Canaan] who occupied the northern area of Palestine at Mt. Hermon/Sion. Located at the 33rd degree, the ancient tribe of Dan influenced the basis of modern Freemasonry.

    IV. Consider the Symbols

    The symbols of the tribe of Dan are used by the Merovingian Jews, the Jewish House of Stewart and the Jewish authors of the Protocols of Sion [Representatives of Sion of the 33rd degree].

    V. Consider the Sin

    The Tribe of Dan was involved in a substitute worship system at Mt. Hermon/Sion that was both opposed to and removed from the true worship of God at Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

    VI. Consider the Plan

    The Judeo-Masonic conspirators have revealed to their own elect and concealed from the profane the fact that a Danite false messiah will reign from the territory of Mount Sion in Dan rather than Mount Zion in Jerusalem. Their ultimate objective is to recreate the pre-flood pagan culture which God once judged and will judge again.
    [...]

    See link at top for full report.

  • RottenRiley
    RottenRiley

    "If Your Not Sure, Your Probably Not" is not true. The Organization conditioned the JWs to believe nobody was Worrrttthyyy of Heaven but the Boys of Walkil, New York. We have a few whack jobs who claim to be of the Annointed and 144,000, I pray to Jehovah they are not part of this group because they are not nice people. The hatred and lack of love the "claimed annointed Piosneer" demonstrates to our brothers and worse to fellow sisters, is proof she is not anything near Christian. Jesus said that "A good tree cannot produce wicked fruit".

    I am a shoe-fitter, the shoes the Witnesses wear are filled with spiritual blood, cruelty and evil from all the friends they stepped on and over to get all the praise and glory. If you are like one of the little children and behave like them, you might be part of the Sealed. If you are like these evil annointed who enjoy hurting other JWs, your not!

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Scripturally there is simply no such thing as a true Christian who is not 'anointed', born-again. You know this.

    But two thousand years later Judge Rutherford announced that a whole new class of non-anointed Christians that never existed in the first century had appeared in 1935.

    Were there 'observers' at the memorial in the first century congregations? Who was commanded to partake of the emblems, per Paul's instructions in Corinthians - a tiny few or all members of the congregation?

    It's simple: who are you going to believe - Jesus and all the apostles or Joseph Rutherford?

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think the bible appears to be a record of events as well as a training manual , I think revelations is definitely written for the remnant to understand because you do need holy spirit to interpret it because it's all symbolic once you get past the parts of jesus speaking to the congregations , I've heard all kinds of crazy interpretations of who the beast and the antichrist are , only one can be correct . I do believe in the LF and GC not being the same instance of followers because the LF finish their eathly course as martyrs the great crowd win victory and are admitted to the paradise earth and are promised never to know death if they remain faithful for the millenial reign and the final test of satans release from the abyss...

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Read "Jesus Interrupted", "Misquoting Jesus" and other books by Prof Bart Ehrman and you will see the Bible was not written for you and me in the 21st Century.

    It is a collection of disparate books written for different audiences, but not one of the audiences was to be much beyond the time of writing, even the Gospels.

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